Sending Fossils To Argentina

[regainfreedom]

Hi, most of us have heard that Argentina has banned export of its fossils. Is it legal to mail Non Argentinian origin fossils or Argentinian origin fossils to Argentina?

[Bear]

While I do not have a definitive answer for you, I suggest some logic.

The countries that have banned export of their fossils usually only ban the export of vertebrate fossils. Why? Because vertebrate fossils are worth a lot more money than most invertebrate fossils. A Tyrannosaurus Rex is worth much more than a trilobite, a leaf or a chunk of coal.

Additionally, trade in the relatively common invertebrate fossils differentially benefits the common working class of the country in question, giving them a source of employment that generates revenues sufficient to support many that would otherwise go hungry and/or be unemployed. Morocco is a prime example of this.

If you are sending a fossil in to the country rather than taking it out of the country, the government will likely see that as adding to the wealth of the country rather than taking wealth out of the country.

I other words, I bet that there is no problem sending your specimen into Argentina. I could always be wrong, of course, but myself - I would go ahead and send the specimen, with a reliable carrier and with appropriate packaging, insurance and tracking.

[THobern]

Don't assume that a country acts rationally or fairly when dealing with the private ownership of fossils. From what I understand of Argentina, private ownership of fossils has been completely banned, meaning that your parcel will almost certainly be confiscated.

[Ron E.]

Don't assume that a country acts rationally or fairly when dealing with the private ownership of fossils. From what I understand of Argentina, private ownership of fossils has been completely banned, meaning that your parcel will almost certainly be confiscated.

Geez, I thought it was ###### up over there when Evita was in power!

BTW, FWIW, my response got bleeped but wasn't THAT bad

Edited November 27, 2009 by Ron E.

[Guest Smilodon]

While I do not have a definitive answer for you, I suggest some logic.

The countries that have banned export of their fossils usually only ban the export of vertebrate fossils. Why? Because vertebrate fossils are worth a lot more money than most invertebrate fossils. A Tyrannosaurus Rex is worth much more than a trilobite, a leaf or a chunk of coal.

Additionally, trade in the relatively common invertebrate fossils differentially benefits the common working class of the country in question, giving them a source of employment that generates revenues sufficient to support many that would otherwise go hungry and/or be unemployed. Morocco is a prime example of this.

If you are sending a fossil in to the country rather than taking it out of the country, the government will likely see that as adding to the wealth of the country rather than taking wealth out of the country.

I other words, I bet that there is no problem sending your specimen into Argentina. I could always be wrong, of course, but myself - I would go ahead and send the specimen, with a reliable carrier and with appropriate packaging, insurance and tracking.

What twisted logic to arrive at a conclusion about which you have no facts. Sheesh.

Too much tryptophan?

Edited November 27, 2009 by Smilodon

[Phoenixflood]

Geez, I thought it was ###### up over there when Evita was in power!

BTW, FWIW, my response got bleeped but wasn't THAT bad

Have no clue what you said, it automatically bleeps stuff out. It has a set list of words. I know Auspex added some words that were automatically bleeped in the past.

[Guest Smilodon]

Don't assume that a country acts rationally or fairly when dealing with the private ownership of fossils. From what I understand of Argentina, private ownership of fossils has been completely banned, meaning that your parcel will almost certainly be confiscated.

You are correct sir!

[siteseer]

Have no clue what you said, it automatically bleeps stuff out. It has a set list of words. I know Auspex added some words that were automatically bleeped in the past.

Yeah, recently in another thread, someone requested an ID for a certain tooth which I determined to be that of a certain flat-tailed, dam-building rodent but the word was bleeped with #'s after I posted my message. I think the auto-bleep needs to be backed up by someone like a "booth challenge" in NFL football when the context clearly reveals a term isn't being employed as unacceptable slang.

[Bear]

..private ownership of fossils has been completely banned..

Holy guacamole! I didn't realize it was that totalitarian and anti science down there. Too bad, that will cost the govt there quite a bit, as they likely extend that control issue to other stuff.....

..What twisted logic to arrive at a conclusion about which you have no facts. Sheesh.

I love you too, Donnie. :kiss:

[Bear]

..From what I understand of Argentina, private ownership of fossils has been completely banned..

I must return to Regainfreedoms initial question then. I searched for the new law that says this ^ and cannot find a reference to it anywhere on the internet thingie. Can anyone back up the above statement with a source or a link? I would appreciate that very much, just for curiosity's science' sake.

[Ron E.]

I must return to Regainfreedoms initial question then. I searched for the new law that says this ^ and cannot find a reference to it anywhere on the internet thingie. Can anyone back up the above statement with a source or a link? I would appreciate that very much, just for curiosity's science' sake.

I found this, but it's more about the exportation of fossils.

[Auspex]

Yeah, recently in another thread, someone requested an ID for a certain tooth which I determined to be that of a certain flat-tailed, dam-building rodent but the word was bleeped with #'s after I posted my message. I think the auto-bleep needs to be backed up by someone like a "booth challenge" in NFL football when the context clearly reveals a term isn't being employed as unacceptable slang.

The language filter came populated with a looooong list of words, some of which can be innocently used in this forum's environment. I'm fixing them as we go

If you get Xed out on an appropriate use, spell the "offending" word out with a space between the letters (which the filter won't recognize) so I know which word to fix.

[Guest Smilodon]

Sometimes wrong but never in doubt, eh, Bear?

Well, I'd prefer a hug, get it , a "bear" hug . Anyhoo, just because it's not on the internet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist (I know, another logical extension shattered) but since I deal with international fossil dealers, you hear about things pretty fast. Like who's containers of fossils have been seized, who spent some time in the pokey when they got caught, and who is banned from where.

Got a minute? Two stories:

-One unnamed U.S. fossil dealer was freed from house arrest in a South American country only when Senator Jesse Helms intervened.

I think I better stop here

[RJB]

I went to the Tucson show last january for the first time in several years and noticed very few fossils from Argentina. It was obvious that laws had changed in that country. But here is something a bit scary. I just read an article in the Smithsonian titled 'The Dino Wars', but some parts in there were some hints that some in this country want all fossils from both public and private lands to be illegal to all but the acidemics. Ive always thought that any one thing saved or put aside for just one group of people is wrong. Always wrong! Yes, its a lot more complicated than that, but if our politicians ever do get around to doing something about anything, they always foul it up and spend waaaaaay too much money doing it, but so many countries are making all fossils illegal, im wonderint now when america will follow suite? Didnt mean to change the subject. Just fresh in my mind since I read that just the other night.

RB

[Guest Smilodon]

I, and a couple others here, have a vested interest in this. We make money off of fossils. But every member here has a vested interest too. Do you want your fossils TAKEN from you?

This has been brewing for a number of years. The organization behind the confiscation effort is the Society for Vertebrate Paleontology. They've never come out as an organization and said that, but that is where the nest is. Their main proponent in Congress is none other than Senator Max Baucus.

Way back when the Aniquities Act passed, avocational/commercial archaeologists lost their rights. We learned from that and are fighting back hard.

Plundering our national heritage? The government gives away oil drilling rights, mineral rights, grazing rights, timber rights. I'm sorry, that is plundering our national heritage. It's the little guys that always get it in the neck.

(Stepping off the soapbox with attitude)

[Northern Sharks]

I went to the Tucson show last january for the first time in several years and noticed very few fossils from Argentina. It was obvious that laws had changed in that country. But here is something a bit scary. I just read an article in the Smithsonian titled 'The Dino Wars', but some parts in there were some hints that some in this country want all fossils from both public and private lands to be illegal to all but the acidemics. Ive always thought that any one thing saved or put aside for just one group of people is wrong. Always wrong! Yes, its a lot more complicated than that, but if our politicians ever do get around to doing something about anything, they always foul it up and spend waaaaaay too much money doing it, but so many countries are making all fossils illegal, im wonderint now when america will follow suite? Didnt mean to change the subject. Just fresh in my mind since I read that just the other night.

RB

Up here, at the limestone quarries I collect in, it's a bit different. Anyone in the scientific community who wants to research the fossils, must know of the places I hunt, but aren't there doing anything with the sites. Any fossils there are either collected by private collectors or dealers, otherwise they get put thru the stone crusher and are lost to everyone. What's the point of making them available only to academics, if they aren't doing anything with them. The quarries have a right not to allow collecting, although I'm not thrilled about that, but the government should keep their noses out of it, unless it is a national heritage site ie. the Burgess Shale. Plus, if any fossils were legally obtained before any ban, in no way should they be confiscated later, to be discarded or locked in a museum's basement.

[Bear]

..since I deal with international fossil dealers, you hear about things pretty fast...

Yep, same here, that is why I am asking for something more solid than an "I heard that...." - nobody I deal with has even mentioned this.

I know it is boring that I keep bringing it back up, but I paid good money for the education and I need to get something back from it:

"No number of testimonials/case histories/opinions can prove a hypothesis, but it only takes one such to disprove a hypothesis." from Experimental Design 101 at university.

We have here the hypothesis that it is illegal to possess a fossil in Argentina. I am asking for some support for that statement, due to the above rule. I am very familiar with the fossil export laws in Morocco - heck I lived there for 2 years and still have friends in country. I have read that the current Chinese laws are very similar to the Moroccan laws - invert exports are OK, verts are a no - no. Fakes, knock - offs and such nonsense are just fine because they bring revenue into the country.

The statement that you took exception to was merely my suggestion that Argentina likely followed suit, based on my knowledge of those export laws and basic human nature. I suspect that is still the case, as it would be very difficult to ban the possession of fossils there.

Why? Because many of the homes in Argentina are made of stone block quarried locally, for starters. Is there a flower in that limestone block? A trilobite? A dynoflagelate? (those are microscopic) Then that farmer can get put away....IF the local po - po even know what a fossil is! 'Course in the real rural areas where the folks still keep those old native traditions, no such law will ever get off the ground enforcement - wise. That would be like trying to eliminate all of the backwoods stills in the Ozarks - it just ain't gonna happen.

Naw, this is another case where Occam's Razor should be applied - they most likely did as I suggested and just followed the precedent that the other countries have established.

How can we solve this dilemma? I would suggest an email to the Argentinian embassy asking them flat out - "Did your country make it illegal to possess a fossil there?"

Another way would be to just send the friend a cheap common fossil....a broken brachiopod or a piece of coral, small slice of pet wood or similar. Send it priority mail with delivery certification, be real clear what is in the package. If it gets there, send the good one, if it doesn't, then don't.

[Bear]

..One unnamed U.S. fossil dealer was freed from house arrest in a South American country only when Senator Jesse Helms intervened.

Yeah, one of my former (now deceased) customers spent 7 years in a Brazilian prison for trying to smuggle out 2 hollow shoe heels full of tourmaline crystals. He became very familiar with Senora cattle - prod while he was there. It did not cure him of his criminal tendencies though. S. America can be a pretty rough place I hear....and I am not going to try and find that out personally either. Just not my cup of tea.

I am an enthusiastic fan of the black market. It is a beautiful balance to persons who fool themselves into thinking that they can control other people with laws and police. Symmetry won out in this spacetime continuum. The equation always balances here. The third law of motion rules, and you get what you pay for - period. There simply is no free lunch anywhere. If you push hard over here, it bulges out over there. Banning things is the governments attempt at repealing the law of supply and demand. It just runs the price up and makes the whatever more desirable as it becomes "forbidden fruit".

If they were to ban "rock and fossil shows" (thanks for the link, Ron!), we would all start getting surreptitious invites to 'secret' rock and fossil shows....gratefully. The cops cannot stop people from speeding or running red lights, drunk driving or robbing banks. Now they are going to bust us for fossils?

Ain't gonna happen, I will help make sure it doesn't - not here.

[tracer]

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/cultural-artifacts-repatriation.htm

[Bear]

"334 pre-Columbian artifacts returned to Peru

On Feb. 11, 2009, ICE and CBP in Laredo, Texas, returned to the Peruvian government 334 pre-Columbian artifacts that were seized in 2007 following an investigation. ICE’s national Cyber Crimes Center had detected the sale of the items online by Jorge Ernesto Lanas-Ugaz in Texas. ICE, CBP and Laredo Police Department officers executed a federal search warrant at Lanas-Ugaz's home in Laredo, where they discovered many additional authentic artifacts, including textiles, ceramic figures, wood sculptures, and metal and stone art. Lanas-Ugaz pleaded guilty to one count of fraudulently importing merchandise and receiving stolen goods. On Sept. 13, 2007, he was sentenced to three years probation and a $2,000 fine."

I got a bunch of fake ones that a client left with me when I IDed them for him...think they want them back too? (they will have to pay for shipping though....)

[Auspex]

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/cultural-artifacts-repatriation.htm

Well, pinecones and dino eggs aren't supposed to leave Argentina, so all the stuff in between might be contraband too.

On May 10, 2008, Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security for ICE Julie L. Myers, returned more than 8,100 pounds of rare fossils to Argentina. Dr. Jose Nun, Minister of Culture, and Dr. Leonardo Salgado of the Museum of Geological and Paleontological Artifacts accepted the antiquities on behalf of the Argentine people. The rare prehistoric fossils had been illegally removed from Argentina and brought into the United States. The cache, including prehistoric pine cones and dinosaur eggs, was seized two years earlier by ICE agents at a gem and mineral show in Tucson, Ariz. The fossils' return sends an important message about ongoing international efforts to combat the trafficking of cultural artifacts and prehistoric specimens.

[Bear]

Yeah, I read up on that bust elsewhere..the stuff was actually confiscated quite some time ago (2005, I think), under the "Argentine Protection of Moveable Cultural Heritage Act 1986" which bans the export of fossils from Argentina as fossils have been determined to be part of the countries cultural heritage.

I am still unable to find a single reference to the claim that Argentines are not allowed to possess or import a fossil. The "Protection of Moveable Cultural Heritage Act 1986" makes no mention of those points either. Stating that possession or importation of fossils is currently banned in Argentina thus appears to be an extraordinary claim, this especially since the act in question is actually 20 + years old now. As I am sure that we all recall, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs." I still see no proof of this claim, extraordinary or otherwise.

I was thrilled to see that Australia had returned that 130 kg of fossils confiscated in 2005. Enjoyed reading about the lawsuit the company hit the Aussie govt with as well. This reminded me of something that California Superior Court Justice James P. Gray states in his book "Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It" (Temple Press, 2001) - (paraphrasing here) "for every tunnel we find, there are 10 we do not find. For every shipment we seize, there are 10 that we miss. For every dealer we put in jail, there are 10 more waiting to take his place."

This can be applied to the illicit fossil trade as well. As soon as you ban something, you lose most of your information on it because the trade doesn't stop, it merely moves underground. The more that you chase it, the deeper underground it goes. It also immediately inflates the price of all such things, whatever they may be.

We seem not to have learned much from our experiments in prohibition and interdiction yet....after all, that worked so good with alcohol....maybe if we keep trying the same thing it will turn out different this time. Maybe we can indeed repeal the law of supply and demand.

[Bear]

Here is a link to that Aussie bust:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0708/S00216.htm