pleecan Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) My fringe question for today... is this... during the mineralization process, can a fossil concentrate radioactivity?? Has anyone used a Geiger counter in the hunt of fossils? Tell us your experience with use of Geiger survey meters and it's application in the fossil hunt. PL Edited December 13, 2009 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 In Colorado and Wyoming, dinosaur bones from the Morrison Formation are fairly hot - quoting Bob Bakker, to the point where "you wouldn't want to leave some bone fragments in your pocket all day long". The Museum of the Rockies collections room has a fairly decent level - not to where it would be dangerous, but I remember someone telling me if it were any higher, folks who spent a lot of time in there would need those special radioactivity exposure badges. Point is, most of the bones that would light up a geiger counter are really big - and it would probably be more difficult than actually looking for bones in outcrop and bone fragments trailing down the hillside. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 In Colorado and Wyoming, dinosaur bones from the Morrison Formation are fairly hot - quoting Bob Bakker, to the point where "you wouldn't want to leave some bone fragments in your pocket all day long". The Museum of the Rockies collections room has a fairly decent level - not to where it would be dangerous, but I remember someone telling me if it were any higher, folks who spent a lot of time in there would need those special radioactivity exposure badges. Point is, most of the bones that would light up a geiger counter are really big - and it would probably be more difficult than actually looking for bones in outcrop and bone fragments trailing down the hillside. Bobby Wow.. thanks for the insight, Bobby... I did not know that dino bones could be HOT! I learned something new today! Do you know if the radiation is mainly Beta or is it more Gamma radiation that the fossilized bone emmits? PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Bone valley phosphate fossils also are radio-active. There is a mountain of gypsum just off US17, a by-product of phosphate processing, for which there is no use because it is radio-active (can't make it into wallboard, for example). http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 Does thing mean that there is a potential that bone fossil ie ancient devonian fish armor plates, fossilized fish skeletons could be radio-active? Has any one encounter any radioactive shells or arthropods (ie trilobites, phyllocarids, )... this is getting interesting. Has any one else detected radioactivity in fossils other than bone fossils? PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THobern Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I've heard of some river-found megs having a higher readings than their surroundings. Although as a I don't know any more than that, this is the equivalent of overhearing it in a bar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 I've heard of some river-found megs having a higher readings than their surroundings. Although as a I don't know any more than that, this is the equivalent of overhearing it in a bar... Thanks for the reply. PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edd Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) i know i saw a guy on discovery channel some time ago looking for dinosaur bones and he was using this detector (big thing box gizzmo that he was dragging with an ATV) thats looking for radioactive stuff in the ground...and he said that those bones have some radioactive "ingredients" in them and thats how he was finding them. Edited December 13, 2009 by edd " We're all puppets, I'm just a puppet who can see the strings. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundancer73 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) NON SEQUITUR.. mineralization occurs from minerals in the deposits the bone/tooth rests in over eons... How can it exceed background radiation levels? ~Mike Edited December 13, 2009 by Sundancer73 All your fossils are belong to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TourmalineGuy Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Life acts as a reservoir of unusually high concentrations of many trace elements. So shouldn't most fossils have higher-than-background radiation? Especially life that is higher up the food chain? Radioactive dating is a testament to how life accumulates radioactive elements... As for after the death of the animal, my intuition says that there are probably many possible occurrences of the fossilization process "adding" radioactivity to the fossil, especially during the early stages of fossilization where near-surface enrichment of minerals occur. But, that is all just speculation. Found this too http://www.springerlink.com/content/p4v53pm6l7324692/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) It seems radioactivity is in fossil is associated with mineralized bone material... not sure if P32 is in the bone fossil but I know that radioactive P32 in form of phosphate can be a strong gamma emitter as I have worked with the stuff some 20yrs ago as a student sequencing viral DNA.... PL Edited December 13, 2009 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 NON SEQUITUR.. mineralization occurs from minerals in the deposits the bone/tooth rests in over eons... How can it exceed background radiation levels? ~Mike It does sound counter-intuitive, doesn't it! If I remember correctly, there is something electro-chemical about these carbon fossil remains that sponges up and concentrates uranium (or other radio-active elements) from groundwater. I am sure it's easily researched on the www. When prospecting for uranium was popular in the mid-twentieth century, the jackpot was finding a fossilized tree trunk permineralized with uranium. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 link just one "hit" found rapidly. remember, diagenesis of things becoming fossils is different from what's happening around the fossils in nearby matrix. stuff precipitates out and strange things happen due to the unique chemistry of the diagenetic process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Tracer... thanks for the link. I am convinced... I will bring a Geiger Survey meter next time I fossil hunt... just for the fun of it... if fossils can concentrate radioactivity... then a radiation detector can localize pockets of potential fossil targets... application = finding fossils in a clay pit.... along with my vintage BFO metal detector to localize iron pyrite deposits.... I better to look for a sale on batteries to power all this equipment in the field. PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smilodon Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Coprolites from the White River Badlands are noted for their radioactivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Super-simplified version from someone with poor grasp of chemistry - The specific reason is because of the mineral lattice of calcium phosphate, which often has 'gaps' in it large enough for uranium atoms to link up and stay; so on a mineralogical scale, the uranium actually becomes incorporated into the mineral lattice during diegenesis; other minerals in the subsurface do not have gaps large enough, or too large, and the uranium atoms pass through. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ynpigo Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Fossilized wood containing radioactive minerals is known from many locations in the four corner states where deposits of uranium occur. I doubt your geiger counter will be of much help to find fossils. Although a true geiger counter is a very sensitive instrument, the reponse time of the instrument to radiation is slow. In other words, you'll likely walk right by your fossil and never notice it. This also assumes that your fossil is radioactive enough to be distinguished above background -- which most fossils are not. A survey meter equipped with a scintillation probe will work much better because the response time is much quicker. Unfortunately, scintillation detectors are not cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 If uranium atoms are the source of radioactivity in certain fossils then a survey meter tuned specifically to alpha detection is the way to go..... in practise... attenuation of the alpha radiation due to air and moisture further diminishes the signal coupled to a slow response detector... I can see now that the odds of detection is slim.... yet still worth a try in the field with Ludlum 3 ... interesting thread.... thanks everyone for your replies PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ynpigo Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Uranium isotopes are alpha emitters. But U-235 is also a significant gamma emitter. The daughter products of U-238 and U-235, which will always be found associated with natural uranium, can also be strong beta and gamma emitters. Gieger counters measure beta and gamma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundancer73 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) VERY interesting. I am curious to see the results of some of your experiments.. please post. ~Mike Edited December 15, 2009 by Sundancer73 All your fossils are belong to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Gieger counters measure beta and gamma. Also there are models of geiger that will also detect Alpha radiation...Ludlum 3....CDV700... Johnson Assoc. GSM-110, ie some Eberline with P10 gas probe...all depends on the probe design... a lot of probes have a window that can be rotated open to enable alpha detection.... cover the window then only Beta and Gamma detection. PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharks of SC Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I remember in my high school marine bio. class our teacher took a geiger counter to a modern whale vert and a fossil one from the Cooper River and the fossil vert exceded the modern vert in radioactivity by a substantial ammount. Makes me think twice about handling bone fragments as often as I do. I usually keep an intesting tooth or something from my most recent hunt in my shirt pocket as well - reconsidering this as well. Seems like potential for future problems...could be a bad situation in a nasty bike wreck or something too. hmmm... Is the radiation substantial enough in these river-found fossils to do any damage physically? CBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megateeth Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I was at the Orlando Fossil Fair a few years ago and someone came in with a geiger counter. He ran it over a pile of fossils I had on my table and it detected something. He went around the room and kept coming back to my fossils. Th thought it was a lot cooler than I did. He said it was not enough to worry about. I suppose that was because they were not his. When I offered him a free tooth he declined. Megateeth Fossils - Megalodon Teeth, Other Shark Teeth and Info about Megalodon shark tooth collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Maybe a dosimeter badge would be a justifiable expense? Worth something in peace of mind, at least. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) We are constantly bombarded with radiation... it is all around us....the type of radiation does matter... the Beta and Gammer emitters are one should be worried. This is just my opinion... if I suspect a fossil ie tooth is radioactive and I had a choice to carry it in my pocket or not... I would perfect not to carry it in my pocket and if I wanted to carry it in my pocket, I would make sure the pocket was lead lined or wear lead lined underware if you carry in your pants pockets. Kidding aside... radiation no matter how small the quantity has the potential to cause cellular injury and at the molecular level can cause DNA damage... mind you the body has its own repair mechanism... does a good job but can fail as we age.... resulting in errors in the celluar replication. Radiation... you can't see it , nor taste it, nor smell it nor touch it... invisible to our senses... that is why we need instrumentation to detect. If you are worried that your fossils may be hot the old civil defense CDV700 analog meter can detect hot above above background radiation... the instrument can even detect hot spots on granite countertops and tombstones cost sub $100 on Ebay... although these instrument may not calibrated... they offer you peace of mind. For example if the background is hypothetically 10 units and then you scan your fossil at 40 units of radiation then you can say your fossil is 40/10=4x greater than background radiation....PL Edited December 16, 2009 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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