Living fossil

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, GallinaPinta said:

I once believed fossils were anything old and dead but after reading the fossil seed that grew into a plant i think the term may have some live exceptions. Incredible. What about those nematodes that were frozen for 42,000 years that were supposedly thawed back to life by scientists? I found it strange and I still don't 100% believe the story of the thawed nematodes from russia but if it were true then that means there are definitely some live fossils. Never thought a quick read about this would change my definition of fossils

Research indicates that memory is preserved in frozen and revived nematodes:

Vita-More N, Barranco D. Persistence of Long-Term Memory in Vitrified and Revived Caenorhabditis elegans. Rejuvenation Res. 2015 Oct;18(5):458-63. doi: 10.1089/rej.2014.1636. Epub 2015 Aug 20. PMID: 25867710; PMCID: PMC4620520.

 

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/rej.2014.1636

[GallinaPinta]

On 12/12/2020 at 12:41 PM, DPS Ammonite said:

Research indicates that memory is preserved in frozen and revived nematodes:

Vita-More N, Barranco D. Persistence of Long-Term Memory in Vitrified and Revived Caenorhabditis elegans. Rejuvenation Res. 2015 Oct;18(5):458-63. doi: 10.1089/rej.2014.1636. Epub 2015 Aug 20. PMID: 25867710; PMCID: PMC4620520.

 

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/rej.2014.1636

Nematodes have memory? Holy molecules that's mind blasting. Do you think that the complex structure of human mammalian brain could be thawed back to life and still hold such memories? I honestly doubt such a thing but at this point anything bizarre seems possible. 

[DPS Ammonite]

On 12/13/2020 at 2:44 PM, GallinaPinta said:

Nematodes have memory? Holy molecules that's mind blasting. Do you think that the complex structure of human mammalian brain could be thawed back to life and still hold such memories? I honestly doubt such a thing but at this point anything bizarre seems possible. 

We probably have to wait a long time before we will know if a reanimated and repaired Ted Williams will remember how to play baseball. He is frozen at the Alcor facility in Scottsdale.

[Mark Kmiecik]

On 12/11/2020 at 10:21 PM, DPS Ammonite said:

Here is an article about a 32K year old seed that grew into a plant. The seed qualified as a fossil by an ordinary definition of a fossil and yet it was still alive. In other words, the definition of a seed as a fossil that is more than a certain age (in this case the OP states 10K years) does not change just because it can grow into a plant.

I must disagree. A 32K-year-old seed that sprouts is not a fossil, nor is a bacterium or a tardigrade that can be revived even a million years later. The term for that is "dormant", not fossilized. In the case of something that lives an extremely long time the term that describes it is not "fossil" but "old".

 

Also, the term "living fossil" is a misnomer. A coelacanth fossil is no longer alive as much as a living coelacanth is not a fossil. Yet both forms coexist. If we accept the term "living fossil" then every form of life on earth is one, having ancestors dating back to extreme antiquity, and probably represented in the fossil record.

[DPS Ammonite]

50 minutes ago, Mark Kmiecik said:

I must disagree. A 32K-year-old seed that sprouts is not a fossil, nor is a bacterium or a tardigrade that can be revived even a million years later. The term for that is "dormant", not fossilized. In the case of something that lives an extremely long time the term that describes it is not "fossil" but "old".

 

Also, the term "living fossil" is a misnomer. A coelacanth fossil is no longer alive as much as a living coelacanth is not a fossil. Yet both forms coexist. If we accept the term "living fossil" then every form of life on earth is one, having ancestors dating back to extreme antiquity, and probably represented in the fossil record.

Fossilized just means that an organism now meets a definition as a being a fossil.
 

If I had you a handful of 20k year old well preserved seeds representing several species, can you tell me which ones are fossils and which ones are not? All the seeds qualify as fossils based on a fossil definition as a trace of an organism that lived over 10K years ago. The definition is silent as to a fossil being dead, alive or dormant. It only requires that it lived over a certain time ago (the OP says 10k years). What if some of the seeds could still be sprouted. Are the ones capable of being sprouted now not able to be called a fossil? Most definitions do not specially state that a fossil has to be dead. The OP only asked: “Does a fossil have to be dead?” All we need to do is to find one example and the answer to the OP’s question is no.

 

I am not arguing about the term “living fossil”. I am only talking about individuals that are over 10K years old, not populations of relatives over time. If you showed me a frozen 11K year old Coelocanth that could be revived, I would call the fish a fossil.

Edited December 13, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[Coco]

Hi,

 

In the United States, you consider everything that is more than 10,000 years old to be fossil. Here in France, We consider as fossil everything that lived before the appearance of the human on earth. After its appearance there is talk of archaeology and not paleontology. But we don’t have the same history.

Personally, I think that if a seed of 10,000 years or 5 million years is able to germinate, it is't fossilized. Fossilization generaly involves transformation into rock.

 

Coco

 

[LabRatKing]

On 12/13/2020 at 2:44 PM, GallinaPinta said:

Nematodes have memory? Holy molecules that's mind blasting. Do you think that the complex structure of human mammalian brain could be thawed back to life and still hold such memories? I honestly doubt such a thing but at this point anything bizarre seems possible. 

That's nothing. The real mind blower is if one trains a flat worm like Dugesia (and a few other species) to run a maze, then cut it into 12 pieces, once they fully regenerate, all 12 clones remember how to run the maze.

 

Even crazier than that, you can grind up one of the pieces or one of the clones and feed that to unrelated worms of the same species... And within a few days they remember how to run the maze too.

 

I won't get into social behavior or structure building...

 

But in with this conversation, there is ancient, biological information that is immortal.

 

So the mind bender is can a concept be a fossil? Can an idea?

In paleontology, ichnofossils are considered fossils, but no biological material transforms into rock...just effects on the environment by organisms.

 

So by that standard, in the future will the damage to the ozone layer be an inch no fossil since it is a trace of activity by an organism?

 

[DPS Ammonite]

5 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

That's nothing. The real mind blower is if one trains a flat worm like Dugesia (and a few other species) to run a maze, then cut it into 12 pieces, once they fully regenerate, all 12 clones remember how to run the maze.

 

Even crazier than that, you can grind up one of the pieces or one of the clones and feed that to unrelated worms of the same species... And within a few days they remember how to run the maze too.

Do they use a new maze with the same layout for each of the 12 clones so that they do not “smell” the path taken by the other worm?

[DPS Ammonite]

44 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:But in with this conversation, there is ancient, biological information that is immortal.

 

So the mind bender is can a concept be a fossil? Can an idea?

As long as the concept is preserved by physical means by the nervous system/brain and the structures are preserved then a concept can be a fossil. Good luck trying to get these concepts from a brain and trying to understand them. 
 

Why do I think that we are creating some fodder for a new sci fi movie?

[LabRatKing]

40 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Do they use a new maze with the same layout for each of the 12 clones so that they do not “smell” the path taken by the other worm?

Yup. Sterile, custom made Petri dishes!

[LabRatKing]

1 minute ago, DPS Ammonite said:

As long as the concept is preserved by physical means by the nervous system/brain and the structures are preserved then a concept can be a fossil. Good luck trying to get these concepts from a brain and trying to understand them. 
 

Why do I think that we are creating some fodder for a new sci fi movie?

I wish it was just sci-fi. I get to work on this Sort of brain bending topic almost everyday. Pandemic has publishing on hold, but hopefully soon we can continue. 

[Mark Kmiecik]

21 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Fossilized just means that an organism now meets a definition as a being a fossil.

Unfortunately, there's no agreement on the definition of one, as evidenced by this discussion. 

[DPS Ammonite]

5 hours ago, Mark Kmiecik said:

Unfortunately, there's no agreement on the definition of one, as evidenced by this discussion. 

I agree with you that there are different versions of what a fossil is. The OP’s question did not require that there be only one definition of a fossil. It only required one reasonable definition of a fossil to allow something living to be a fossil. The 32K year old viable seeds were given as a good example.

 

Everyone should agree on the definition of fossilized as being reasonable since it does not define a fossil. It only states how fossilized relates to the word fossil. 
 

Here is a definition from Merriam Webster Dictionary:

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[Allosaurus]

22 hours ago, LabRatKing said:

That's nothing. The real mind blower is if one trains a flat worm like Dugesia (and a few other species) to run a maze, then cut it into 12 pieces, once they fully regenerate, all 12 clones remember how to run the maze.

 

Even crazier than that, you can grind up one of the pieces or one of the clones and feed that to unrelated worms of the same species... And within a few days they remember how to run the maze too.

 

I won't get into social behavior or structure building...

 

 

 

I really have no words for this than WOW! Do you have sources for this? Id love to read the papers. 

[LabRatKing]

2 minutes ago, Allosaurus said:

I really have no words for this than WOW! Do you have sources for this? Id love to read the papers. 

Here's one of them. A bit of Google will find more. Mine aren't even in pre print yet as I have to go to Europe to collect more worms.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5051648/

[LabRatKing]

Okay. So we talked about what makes a fossil, how it is defined, how the process is defined... got mildly of topic about data fossils...

 

Lets kep it going with the elephant in the room...errm...ice...

 

Is a permafrost preserved mammoth, bear or wolf a fossil?

 

No mineralization has taken place remember, but the age concept @Coco mentioned comes into play....

 

Then let’s talk amber...

[GallinaPinta]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:27 PM, LabRatKing said:

That's nothing. The real mind blower is if one trains a flat worm like Dugesia (and a few other species) to run a maze, then cut it into 12 pieces, once they fully regenerate, all 12 clones remember how to run the maze.

 

Even crazier than that, you can grind up one of the pieces or one of the clones and feed that to unrelated worms of the same species... And within a few days they remember how to run the maze too.

Dude no freaking way

That's just-

Seriously eerie 

[DPS Ammonite]

50 minutes ago, LabRatKing said:

Okay. So we talked about what makes a fossil, how it is defined, how the process is defined... got mildly of topic about data fossils...

 

Lets kep it going with the elephant in the room...errm...ice...

 

Is a permafrost preserved mammoth, bear or wolf a fossil?

 

No mineralization has taken place remember, but the age concept @Coco mentioned comes into play....

 

Then let’s talk amber...

All fossils are not mineralized and pre 10K year old organisms can be mineralized. Several streams such as Fossil Creek deposit inches to feet of limestone over plant material every year creating mineralized molds and casts.
 

A frozen organism or an organism in amber of a proper age is a fossil.

A specific method of preservation is not required. It is only required that an organism is preserved long enough through any method to be a fossil in a simple and general definition of a fossil.

Edited December 15, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[GallinaPinta]

3 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

A frozen organism or an organism in amber of a proper age is a fossil.

A specific method of preservation is not required. It is only required that an organism is preserved long enough through any method to be a fossil in simple and general definition of a fossil.

For me, personally, a fossil is anything that has been fossilized and is of pre-modern era.

[GallinaPinta]

Before i read this thread, i thought a fossil had to be most certainly dead to be able to be called a fossil. But science really went and changed that lol 

[DPS Ammonite]

13 minutes ago, GallinaPinta said:

Before i read this thread, i thought a fossil had to be most certainly dead to be able to be called a fossil. But science really went and changed that lol 

A fossil originally meant “something dug up” which turned into a trace of life older than a certain date. Most scientists probably never anticipated that organisms older than 10K years such as seeds and bacteria could be reanimated.

https://ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/explorations/tours/fossil/9to12/Page1.html

Edited December 15, 2020 by DPS Ammonite

[erose]

Yall realize its an oxymoron, right?