Any tips on purchasing a Sclerocephalus or a Messel bat?

[Vertebrate]

Hello Fossil Forum,

I've been interested in bat fossils from the Messel pit as well as one of the bigger Amphibians from the Permian since quite a while. As both are expensive items I don't want to make a mistake. I've found very little information about these fossils, especially for collectors, on the web. Interesting and useful information I found from @oilshale, like the one that Messel bats tend to show either good bone OR skin preservation. What should a good specimen feature and what should be avoided? Especially since both kind of fossils require special preparation techniques.

As for Sclerocephalus, the following one is on display since many months, so I assume it's relatively expensive. It looks very good to me but what do the experts think about it?

In every case I'm curious for the Munich Show next weekend as there have been examples of both fossils in the past.

Thanks!

 

[piranha]

I purchased this magnificent 52 cm specimen from this shop many years ago. Photos are always difficult to evaluate precisely, however the description was 100% accurate and it came with an unconditional guarantee of satisfaction. The owner and staff are extremely knowledgeable and professional and highly recommended, especially for these spectacular Permian amphibians.

 

[doushantuo]

You might ask member Pemphix <Vertebrate

how some parts should look like:

Edited October 21, 2021 by doushantuo

[Vertebrate]

Hello Piranha,

thanks for sharing your experience. This is indeed a gorgeous specimen you have!  I also made a smaller purchase from this shop years ago and was happy with it.

Now I asked for further details concerning resto, paint etc.

[Vertebrate]

1 minute ago, doushantuo said:

You might ask member Pemphix <Vertebrate

Ok thanks, perhaps @Pemphix can help? Would be much appreciated.

[Vertebrate]

Since there was no more feedback, nothing comparable at the Munich Show and the seller said "zero restoration", i finally purchased the critter. It looks amazing in real! The specimen would be about 65 cm if outstretched and appears quite detailed and 3-dimensional.

As for Permian fossils of this formation I found a very interesting and informative site: https://permfossil.de/. It's about the occurring species, stratigraphy, paleoclimate- and ecology and preparation techniques. Sounds like there is a lot of work in such a slab! Too bad it's only in German language.

 

[Pemphix]

Sorry not to answer earlier, but i was very busy in job...

First of all: never buy any high-prized fossils without inspecting it before personally (if you are experienced, otherwise together with an expert knowing the fossils, location etc. offered) !

As already very often written here, photos might not show everything what's up with the fossil.

If there's some restoration or other odd things that might be "unwanted" and you buy, it's not funny, but if it is a REAL expensive fossil like Sclero or some Messel fossils, that REALLY hurts.

Concerning the "quality": that depends - besides of obvious things like completeness, repairs etc.  - on personal expectations. For example: if you want a Sclero with skin shadow you will not accept one without.

Always compare the preservation with those others offered or exhibited to get a feeling, what is good quality and what not. Quality may differ from site to site, age to age and fossil to fossil.

An urchin in triassic sediments is very rare so you are happy to find even some fragments. Finding fragments in jurassic or tertiary sediments usually ends up in ignoring them, because there are a lot of complete specimens showing a lot of details in perfect preservation.

If you have more detailed questions feel free to write a pm to me.

 

 

 

 

[Vertebrate]

Hello Pemphix,

thanks for your input!  Yes it was probably not very smart to buy without inspecting it in person. I did compare all the specimen I could find online and on fossil shows for several years though, which is why I was interested particularly in this one since it was online for sale. It’s well articulated, complete and with distinct skin impression. My main concern was that there might have been something added from other individuals or artificial bones (don’t know if this is common but who knows). When I heard „no restoration“ I trusted the seller, as I heard I could return it in every case. 

I inspected it very closely with magnifying tools and UV-light and couldn’t spot anything suspicious. I’ll upload some photos. 

After buying this, a Messel bat is currently no more in question. 

[Pemphix]

Nice to hear, that you are fine with your buy !

 

[Vertebrate]

Somehow this sounds like I shouldn't. I could still return it so please let me know if there's something wrong with.

[siteseer]

As for the bat, you should educate yourself on basic bat anatomy and about the Messel site in general.  There's never a bat expert, especially an Eocene bat expert, around so you need to learn about what you're looking at.  If you're going to kick out some good money in something like that, you should invest in a couple of books/publications about Messel.  I have "Schatze in Schiefer" by Hans W. Wolf (Westermann, 1991 edition).  It has some nice photos of bat specimens.

 

This recently-published book looks good (available in German or English):

 

https://www.senckenberg.de/en/science/senckenberg-publications/books/senckenberg-books/buch-messel-an-ancient-greenhouse-ecosystem/

[Vertebrate]

Hi Siteseer, thanks for the advice. You’re right, for unknown reasons there’s never an Eocene bat expert around you when you need one.  It’s probably not the kind of fossil to actively search for, it needs some luck to come across a nice one. Some years ago a Polish seller at the Munich Show had an (in my opinion) exceptionally beautiful one with visible ears, amazing skull and well preserved soft tissue. It was also way more expensive than the less complete ones I’ve seen elsewhere, too much for me back then. So far all bats from Messel I’ve seen for sale were labeled as Palaeochiropteryx. This seemed plausible due to their small size and the relative abundance of the species. My main problem with Messel fossils in general is, given that are always placed in artificial matrix due to the transfer method: How could I tell good a cast from a real fossil?

In any case I would purchase the book you recommended before I’d buy such a fossil. I’ve rent some other publication about Messel in the library before but this one I haven’t seen yet.