Shellseeker Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) I do not recognize this one.... Where is @Harry Pristis when I need him? I heard that canids ALSO have tarsals and carpals.. What else besides Bison, horse, camels ?? Edited February 11, 2022 by Shellseeker Trying to change title The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 No help here. Let us know what you discover. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 I think it's a magnum, a carpal, with those two curved surfaces being where it articulates with the scaphoid and lunar (or scapholunar depending on the mammal order). I haven't looked at bones in detail in a while. @fossillarry should take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 These are magnums from smilodon and atrox. Approximately right size from photos but not it's not obvious to me that they match. (Felidae Rancho la Brea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 11, 2022 Author Share Posted February 11, 2022 1 hour ago, fossilus said: These are magnums from smilodon and atrox. Approximately right size from photos but not it's not obvious to me that they match. (Felidae Rancho la Brea) Thank you for the trail to follow.... The measurements are smaller than smilodon or atrox. However, some smaller Dirk toothed cats are a possibility in Florida. Homotherium serum, and Xenosmilus hudsonae. I am trying to line it up... What do you see that I do not. What told you that this is cat? The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 3 hours ago, Shellseeker said: Thank you for the trail to follow.... The measurements are smaller than smilodon or atrox. However, some smaller Dirk toothed cats are a possibility in Florida. Homotherium serum, and Xenosmilus hudsonae. I am trying to line it up... What do you see that I do not. What told you that this is cat? No, I was just looking at the rough size. Yours didn't look to me like these but sometimes when it's in your hand you can make a match. I suspect there are many trails you could follow on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlar7607 Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 Sent the picture to a knowledgeable friend he came back with Llama in about 5 seconds. You know who it is Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 18, 2022 Share Posted February 18, 2022 1 hour ago, jlar7607 said: Sent the picture to a knowledgeable friend he came back with Llama in about 5 seconds. You know who it is Jack What part of a lamine camelid does your friend think it is? IOW, which bone? 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlar7607 Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 he is not sure. looking at the neophytes guide it looks like a intermediate carpal 90% sure pg 147 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, jlar7607 said: he is not sure. looking at the neophytes guide it looks like a intermediate carpal 90% sure pg 147 There seems to be some significant similarity between these bones. What is this "Intermediate Carpal Bone" of Hemiauchenia macrocephala ? I have never heard of it. @Harry Pristis @digit Edited February 19, 2022 by Shellseeker 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 19, 2022 Share Posted February 19, 2022 "Intermediate carpal" is a veterinary term, not used by modern paleontologists. It may equate to the lunate in horses and cows . . . Is that what's illustrated in the scans? Jack . . . Whence did the ID of Hemiauchenia macrocephala arise? How do you distinguish between the two common lamine camelids, Paleolama and Hemiauchenia, even assigning a trivial name to the find!? Are you relying on other fossils you find in the Peace River float? Biochronology is unreliable when dealing with unassociated fossils from the float. Carpals and tarsals have always been a challenge. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 4 hours ago, Harry Pristis said: Jack . . . Whence did the ID of Hemiauchenia macrocephala arise? How do you distinguish between the two common lamine camelids, Paleolama and Hemiauchenia, even assigning a trivial name to the find!? Are you relying on other fossils you find in the Peace River float? Biochronology is unreliable when dealing with unassociated fossils from the float. Carpals and tarsals have always been a challenge. Harry, Thank you. You always provide value.. I am rushed... going out today. Messed us ... Finally sent an email on this to Richard Hulbert last night... The ID came from Frank Kocsis, Will read your response tonight. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 I am back from hunting the same location. Curious, for a fossil that I had never seen previously, I found a 2nd larger one. Note that my keywords for this thread indicate Pliocene and Blancan. These were not found in the Peace River. Fortunately , Richard Hulbert responded on a request for Identification. Quote This is the carpal bone that biologists and paleontologists that study mammals call the lunar. The same bone in humans is called the lunate. It gets its name because in humans and other primates it has a crescent shaped, sort of like the section of an orange. But its shape in other mammals can be quite different. And this example is definitely from a member of the Camelidae by its anatomy, and if it is Blancan age, then Hemiauchenia is by far the most common type found in Florida. There have been a few somewhat iffy records of Palaeolama from the very late Blancan, but it generally does not show up in numbers until the Irvingtonian. The reason for the variation in naming goes back centuries in the history of science and medicine. For some reason, those studying human anatomy came up with one set a names for carpal and tarsal bones, those studying animals a different set of names, and finally veterinarians came up with a third. Sometimes different terms for the same bone are used between herpetologists and mammalogists. Some of the names for particular names are the same or similar, some completely different. Intermediate carpal bone (or intermedium) is the term used by vets. Richard I can not say enough about Richard. He is a resource on Florida fossil who has assisted me over and over again, including Identifying numerous Blancan species at this site. I will identify this fossil as a Blancan age Hemiauchenia .sp Lunar. I am really surprised that it took 13 years for me to find my 1st Camelidae lunar, and then 9 days to find my 2nd. Finding new fossils is always a thrilling experience. I will be able to identify the 3rd one I find. Jack 3 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Here are a couple of lunars from the Peace River: 1 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 20, 2022 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 9 hours ago, Harry Pristis said: Here are a couple of lunars from the Peace River: It seems as if those from the Peace River are larger. I will attempt to find other photos of Florida Camel lunars. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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