Meganeura Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 (edited) So I was recently looking at Canid detention cause of the dire wolf tooth I found this past weekend - and stumbled across pictures of upper Dire Wolf M2s, and thought they looked familiar. A while ago, back in August, I found this tooth that I sent to Hulbert for an ID. He said it was an Otter M1. However, while it looks quite similar to an Otter M1, it also seems to match a Dire Wolf M2, possibly even more closely. So first here’s the tooth - it’s 14.2mm long: The size fits both Enhydritherium terraenovae (Which is the Otter) M1s: And Canis dirus M2s: It looks as though the otter molar has a wider section of tooth where the protocone sits (lingual side) compared to the Dire Wolf M2, which has a longer labial side. My tooth seems to have a longer labial side, but just barely, but I’m also really not 100% sure. Anyone have any ideas, or a way to tell? @Harry Pristis @Shellseeker @digit Edited December 20, 2022 by Meganeura Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 So I measured with calipers - total tooth length: 14.55mm. Lingual side width: 7.53mm. Labial side width: 9.01mm. So since the labial side is 1.5mm longer than the lingual - points to it being canid - and size points to it being Dire Wolf. @minnbuckeye does a length of 14.55m fit dire wolf M2 size? From FLMNH pictures it does, but I want to make sure. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Unfortunately, I am no expert. I just know when I found a dire wolf molar, SIZE was very important to rule out other possibilities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 Just now, minnbuckeye said: Unfortunately, I am no expert. I just know when I found a dire wolf molar, SIZE was very important to rule out other possibilities. Well my comparisons to Coyote (M2 length <1cm), Wolf (M2 length also <1cm), and domestic dogs (Once again, M2 length <1cm) have pointed to a larger canid. So I mean, I suppose it could also be Epicyon haydeni as the size still fits, as does the county it was found in. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 (edited) Epicyon haydeni picture from the FLMNH website, I moved the scale bar (in cm) - puts the M2 tooth at approximately 14-15mm. (I really wish they had better quality pics...) Same thing with Canis dirus - M2 at about 12-13mm. I suppose size points to E. haydeni here. E. haydeni lived in Clarendonian to early Hemphilian, and I found the Cormohipparion ingenuum tooth (Early Clarendonian to Early Hemphilian) like 300ft away from where I found this M2. So I suppose it's not unreasonable to think it's E. haydeni, though C. dirus is probably much more likely. If anyone wants to chime in with corrections, please do - I'm going off of google research pretty much here! Edited December 20, 2022 by Meganeura Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 Daniel, you are asking Florida amateur fossil hunters to comment on similar looking teeth from at least one mammal in the Miocene, all of which are about 14-15 mm. While you have Richard Hulbert's initial response and no one, even scientists, are infallible. I'd suggest that you need to have a longer conversation with him highlighting your points and evaluating his responses. He is retired , not dead. Send him an email Having never seen or held any of these teeth, I am not qualified to comment. Jack 1 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Daniel, you are asking Florida amateur fossil hunters to comment on similar looking teeth from at least one mammal in the Miocene, all of which are about 14-15 mm. While you have Richard Hulbert's initial response and no one, even scientists, are infallible. I'd suggest that you need to have a longer conversation with him highlighting your points and evaluating his responses. He is retired , not dead. Send him an email Having never seen or held any of these teeth, I am not qualified to comment. Jack Hulbert still responds to emails? I figured he'd have to leave them as part of his retirement! I'll definitely reach out to him then. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 Daniel, Richard, he was responding to SOME of mine, those that interested him the most... No promises You might have missed this thread, given your interest in Miocene wolves.... http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/messenger/97494/&tab=comments#comment-389384 Jack The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fin Lover Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 (edited) I can't open that link... not sure if others can. Edited December 22, 2022 by Fin Lover Fin Lover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 22, 2022 Author Share Posted December 22, 2022 11 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Daniel, Richard, he was responding to SOME of mine, those that interested him the most... No promises You might have missed this thread, given your interest in Miocene wolves.... http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/messenger/97494/&tab=comments#comment-389384 Jack I can't open it either, weirdly! And I emailed him... we'll see if he decides I'm worth responding to or not I did mention my suspicions about it possibly being E. Haydeni so maybe that'll spark his interest. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Meganeura said: I can't open it either, weirdly! And I emailed him... we'll see if he decides I'm worth responding to or not I did mention my suspicions about it possibly being E. Haydeni so maybe that'll spark his interest. 1 hour ago, Fin Lover said: I can't open that link... not sure if others can. Hmmm, It took me seconds to figure out the problem. The link is to a PM between PrehistoricFlorida and me concerning Pliocene wolves back in May of 2020. PMs are private. So, I will do a little cut/paste. Quote Nate, Hope life is treating you well, I was hunting yesterday finding 3-toeds and a chunk of Walrus tusk, and this pops up. So maybe Pliocene wolf...thinking p2...m2 dentition. Do you you have any Armbruster comparison jaws? I am amazed that I get so excited about toothless jaws. Thanks , Jack So Daniel, you are doing precise measurements on google. Nate and I concluded it was canid, but not which canid.... Nate sent me this image... Jack, I don't have an Armbruster jaw. But, compare to this C. edwardi jaw. It's going to be extremely difficult (ie. impossible) to positively ID sans teeth. Nate I promptly compared it to a C edwardi jaw I did find. Thanks Nate, understood.. I had you and Richard help me on an Edwardi ID 6 months ago, here compared with yours... EXCEPT mine is 2 inches... your equivalent is 3 plus, my m1 is 19mm, yours 25. This new jaw section would be between them at 2.4 inches for the equivalent section. I have a lot of finding examples and comparisons to do. Once again thanks, Jack So, just giving you more info and asking what you can deduce about these Florida wolf jaws. I sort of left it hanging... 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 23, 2022 Author Share Posted December 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Hmmm, It took me seconds to figure out the problem. The link is to a PM between PrehistoricFlorida and me concerning Pliocene wolves back in May of 2020. PMs are private. So, I will do a little cut/paste. So maybe Pliocene wolf...thinking p2...m2 dentition. Do you you have any Armbruster comparison jaws? I am amazed that I get so excited about toothless jaws. Thanks , Jack So Daniel, you are doing precise measurements on google. Nate and I concluded it was canid, but not which canid.... Nate sent me this image... Jack, I don't have an Armbruster jaw. But, compare to this C. edwardi jaw. It's going to be extremely difficult (ie. impossible) to positively ID sans teeth. Nate I promptly compared it to a C edwardi jaw I did find. Thanks Nate, understood.. I had you and Richard help me on an Edwardi ID 6 months ago, here compared with yours... EXCEPT mine is 2 inches... your equivalent is 3 plus, my m1 is 19mm, yours 25. This new jaw section would be between them at 2.4 inches for the equivalent section. I have a lot of finding examples and comparisons to do. Once again thanks, Jack So, just giving you more info and asking what you can deduce about these Florida wolf jaws. I sort of left it hanging... Mm, my best guess here would be what I can probably also conclude about the small canid jaw I found - I'm missing diagnostic teeth (P4, m1, being the most important for IDs), and with an M2 being the same shape consistently throughout canids, I can deduce that my tooth belongs to a large canid... and that's about it. Everything else is pure speculation, I'm sure. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now