These caught my eye

[Randyw]

Love the new photos! Nice and clear, good contrast, a little ruler for scale and they would be perfect! Now you’re ready to get things identified when you do find some fossils!

[Kfinn0319]

Can someone tell me what these are? I have had them for awhile, but never bothered to id them... 

[Kfinn0319]

I thought some sort of coral... 

[doushantuo]

Your pix have improved!

 

[Ludwigia]

Not seeing any corals here. Maybe at least a gastropod in the 2nd to last pic.

[Kfinn0319]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:12 PM, doushantuo said:

I don't think what the poster has shown us(blurry though it may be) has a paleobiological origin

?

[digit]

1 hour ago, Kfinn0319 said:

?

Meaning that all of your rocks (so far) are geologic oddities and are not fossil remains of any biological origin.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Kfinn0319]

Nope. This one is different. I'm with you on the rest. I get it, but this one is much better. 

[JohnJ]

22 minutes ago, Kfinn0319 said:

Nope. This one is different. I'm with you on the rest. I get it, but this one is much better. 

 

Again, whether something is a fossil is not dependent on feelings, vibes, or other subjective criteria.  

 

On some gravel bars I hunt, I could find a couple dozen bizarre, suggestively shaped rocks within a few hours that would not be fossils.

[Kfinn0319]

Sorry about the lighting, but it's late and the best I could do. This is far from pareidolia. This is obvious detail and it's even better in hand... 

[Kfinn0319]

This is pattern recognition at a subconscious level. I picked it up because I saw it was special, but I didn't know why. When I started cleaning it my conscious mind was trying to interpret what I was seeing. This caused some identification discrepancies asking the way. Pareidolia is a completely different phenomenon and is nowhere near this specific. Have you bothered to think there would be a counter effect to Pareidolia. Maybe some people's minds, with a lot more knowledge and experience than I (100's of years collectively speaking), would refuse to see something they always thought was impossible. Just a thought. 

[Kfinn0319]

Everything there, which is far more than obvious, is exactly where it should be. That is an outstanding coincidence if you ask me. I'm not going to work this one anymore as I am afraid I will cause damage. I may have already, but what choice did I have. I had to prove it wasn't just a rock. Again everything I have shown is so much better in hand... 

[Kfinn0319]

 

28 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Again, whether something is a fossil is not dependent on feelings, vibes, or other subjective criteria.  

I'm not referring to my feeling about this one anymore. It's far more than that now. I was just explaining why I couldn't give up on it. I'm happy I didn't. 

[JohnJ]

12 hours ago, Kfinn0319 said:

This is far from pareidolia. This is obvious detail and it's even better in hand..

 

Sorry to tell you but this is an unusual shape created by differential weathering.  It is a very common geologic process that is easily recognized by those familiar with basic knowledge of various rock types. 

 

If you seek to find "fossilized bodies" without regard for other evidence...you will find them...and no one will be able to explain to you otherwise.  That's a choice we all make.

 

I think it's normal for someone with a curious mind to try and make sense of a strangely shaped rock.  But, if you don't broaden your knowledge of rock types, you lose a huge opportunity to understand things you encounter and make it easier to convince yourself of errors.

[doushantuo]

recommended reading(alterations to the frontispice are mine )

discusses hermeneutic,semantic,philosophical,methodological and numerical/mathematical reasons for perceiving patterns in geological data

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by doushantuo

[FossilNerd]

7 hours ago, Kfinn0319 said:

This is pattern recognition at a subconscious level. I picked it up because I saw it was special, but I didn't know why. When I started cleaning it my conscious mind was trying to interpret what I was seeing. This caused some identification discrepancies asking the way. Pareidolia is a completely different phenomenon and is nowhere near this specific.

 

You just described the process of how pareidolia works, then denied that you are experiencing it.  
 

 

Unfortunately, as the others have already stated, you have an oddly shaped rock again.
 

We all see suggestive shapes in rocks. It’s natural to. It’s looking past our pareidolia that’s the trick. You can’t just look at the shape of something, and say “Eureka! I found a fossil of a dragon who ate a unicorn! Look, see the rainbow coprolite!” You laugh, but we see claims not too far from this all the time.

There are specific morphological features we look for. Things that confirm what we think we see is in fact what it is. Basically features like enamel on a supposed tooth, bone structure on a supposed skull, wood structure in a supposed piece of petrified wood. It often gets more specific than that, and seeing one thing tends to lead us to look for another.
 

For instance, a tooth seems like an easy thing to positively identify, but it’s a lot more complicated than just shape. What we think is enamel on a tooth still might not confirm it is a tooth. We may have to also look for serrations, chewing surface, the root, a specific groove, cusplets, curvature, and the diagnostic features that confirm those things. You really start to feel like a detective.

Study the morphological and diagnostic features of something and you will start to naturally look past the shape and really see what you have. 

 

7 hours ago, Kfinn0319 said:

Maybe some people's minds, with a lot more knowledge and experience than I (100's of years collectively speaking), would refuse to see something they always thought was impossible. Just a thought. 

 

If you can show us something diagnostic and not just shape, you will quickly change our minds. I’d be willing to bet that out of all the sciences, paleontology is one of the most open minded. It’s a relatively young science compared to most, and things change all the time. It is constantly evolving as we learn something new. 
 

One thing all of us learned rather quickly is that shape does not a fossil make. So point out bone structure, plates, suture lines, bilateral symmetry, something besides a general shape and we will join in on your celebration of making a new fantastic discovery. 

[Randyw]

Once again i’m with the others. This is still a natural rock. Not a fossil.

[Kfinn0319]

22 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

If you can show us something diagnostic and not just shape, you will quickly change our minds.

 

22 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

One thing all of us learned rather quickly is that shape does not a fossil make. So point out bone structure, plates, suture lines, bilateral symmetry,

I have pointed out many of those things. Bilateral symmetry, bone structure and specific bones themselves. I showed a R arm from the shoulder to the finger tips, legs, feet, provide, hip, thigh, head and L arm (which is still not distinct at all I admit). I explained why the symmetry would be off and how it could've ended up that way. I even showed evidence of that on the back side with the position of the pelvis, hip and thigh on the left side rear.

 

On 4/29/2023 at 10:40 PM, JohnJ said:

Sorry to tell you but this is an unusual shape created by differential weathering

Weathering of a rock would be apparent on the surface of the rock when it was found. The surface of this rock is nothing like it was when I found it. Also I didn't see this as what I am claiming it to be until will into the cleaning process. I originally thought this was an artifact from a few hundred years ago and set it aside. The first time I posted it my thoughts on it had evolved to maybe a toe, scute, or maybe even a horn. When I was told by the forum it was nothing, I originally accepted that conclusion and also set it aside. One of the main reasons I picked it back up out of curiosity is because of the white surface of it. I had recalled some Pterosaur embryos that had been discovered with a similar surface and felt that reason enough to investigate further. I had no idea what I was looking at asking the way which had me bouncing around on my identification of it. That, I agree, is Pareidolia. I was seeing shapes and letting my mind, in excitement, jump to conclusions about those shapes. I understand the reasons you all are feeling the way you are about this. I really do get it. I am not just some average Joe that started picking up rocks. I, at the risk of sounding egotistical, am of above average intelligence and challenge myself quite often. I don't like not knowing the answer and I am constantly researching the subjects I find myself part of. I have tried to explain my position in every way possible including begging and pleading for any of you to step out of the known variables and step into the unknown of possibilities. I promise you I didn't just see what I was seeing on this and it was that. I didn't know what I was seeing and trying to process it. I had to research to reach the conclusions I have. I looked up so many different fossilized skeletons trying to reconcile the parts I was seeing with actual skeletons already discovered. I also made sure that I could find the same parts on both R and L if there was. I have spent much thought on all of the things you all have challenged me with. I will admit that the stubborn attitudes, passive aggressive pokes, dumb jokes and dismissive posts have been frustrating and hurtful, to say the least. I have also had to step back and objectively view the position of the forum and I understand where you are coming from. I can only imagine how many people have entered the forum and made outlandish claims of amazing finds. The "Holy Grail" of fossils if you will. I have come here and done the same thing, but I have evolved and been willing to be humbled by all of you. I believe that is a good thing. I will not learn from the collective knowledge from a forum as this forum without first having some humility. You all have taught me both and I am a better man for it. To those that did make fun of me and had topics like "show us your Pareidolia images", although hurt my feelings and I almost put you in your place, I understand why you are doing this. To you I am no different than so many before me making claims of amazing finds. My stubbornness must be frustrating to you and for that I'm sorry. I know what I know about what I have and to me it's not stubborn, it's fact that I still have the burden of proving. That is a challenge I have accepted and will accomplish very soon. It's actually quite amazing to me how not one single member of this forum could even say, look at that. That is very close andi can see why he thinks it might be what he thinks. Not one. You all stood in solidarity to shut me down without even a question of curiosity. That is like high school to me. I was a bully throughout my young life and have had great regret over that. I have spent many years trying to make up for the way I made others feel. I would much rather be on the receiving end of that, than being the bully again. That being said, you guys don't realize how close minded you are. You don't realize how you are living, working, and teaching out of a paleontological box of known quantities, refusing to step outside. I mean come on. I have provided enough evidence for at least a small percentage to say maybe he's right. It needs to be investigated further. Not one single person. You guys all stayed aligned against. That is actually an impressive show of immaturity and stubbornness. Ask yourselves ", what if he does have what he believes?"! Every single one of you would have ended up on the wrong side and I would own that moment. That time is coming very soon as well. I begged someone to take this from me so I wouldn't ruin it, which I have damaged it very slightly. I just wanted it to have it's day in the sun. I didn't want any fame or fortune because of it. That has all changed now. WHEN I am finished with this, I am going to brag and rub it in. 100's of years of knowledge and experience, collectively speaking, and I am better than you. With just a few years of rock collecting, according to you.

[Kane]

That is not how science works. You may be taking this too personally, and you might refrain from making accusations about the membership. 

 

Perhaps, in the end, it is not us who are close-minded. This "thinking outside the box" is not how this science operates at all.

 

If your goal is in any way to show the members up, to "brag and rub it in," that is a rather sad and unfortunate goal, as that is an oppositional approach I very much doubt our members share -- we are not in competition with you. It sounds like this is becoming too personal. 

 

"That is actually an impressive show of immaturity and stubbornness." -- I'll thank you not to generalize about our membership. This is not how we conduct ourselves here. Our members are trying to help. If you wish to interpret that assistance as some kind of opposition or confrontation, that is your choice, but likely not the correct one. 

 

Bring your specimens in hand to a paleontologist as we will continue to agree to disagree. I will lock this topic before it devolves into further insults. 

[Fossildude19]

1 hour ago, Kfinn0319 said:

It's actually quite amazing to me how not one single member of this forum could even say, look at that. That is very close and i can see why he thinks it might be what he thinks. Not one. You all stood in solidarity to shut me down without even a question of curiosity

 

That is because we do not see what you are seeing. To us, we are seeing an interestingly shaped rock. No bones/bone texture/morphology. No embryos, skin, soft tissue, no evidence of fossils of ANY kind.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kfinn0319 said:

That being said, you guys don't realize how close minded you are. You don't realize how you are living, working, and teaching out of a paleontological box of known quantities, refusing to step outside. I mean come on. I have provided enough evidence for at least a small percentage to say maybe he's right. It needs to be investigated further. Not one single person. You guys all stayed aligned against. That is actually an impressive show of immaturity and stubbornness. Ask yourselves ", what if he does have what he believes?"! Every single one of you would have ended up on the wrong side and I would own that moment. That time is coming very soon as well. I begged someone to take this from me so I wouldn't ruin it, which I have damaged it very slightly. I just wanted it to have it's day in the sun. I didn't want any fame or fortune because of it. That has all changed now. WHEN I am finished with this, I am going to brag and rub it in. 100's of years of knowledge and experience, collectively speaking, and I am better than you. With just a few years of rock collecting, according to you.

 

 

We are not close minded. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone has said this. People with absolutely no knowledge of geology, stratigraphy, or paleontology show us shapes they see in the rocks, and are disappointed when the SCIENCE proves them wrong. Of all of the people who have said the exact same things you are saying, (and there have been many over the 13 years I have been here!)   NEVER, NOT ONCE has anyone come back, to "rub our noses" in anything. THAT is because THEY WERE WRONG.

 

When they bring their items to paleontologists, the paleontologists have to give them the bad news, and then it is back to the old "You need to think outside the box", "stuck in old thinking" "Unwilling to leave the comfort of their science" "They don't have the vision that I have, How can they not see???"   spiel.  Heard it before.

 

We've heard this ad nauseum.  As stated previously - we would love to have someone find something amazing, and prove us all wrong. 

Unfortunately, it hasn't ever happened. And railing against people who are trying to help you, and blaming us for not recognizing your finds"for what they are"  is not the way to go about this. There is no conspiracy here, there are only people here, trying to teach you about rocks and geology and fossils. 

 

Look, no one posted the "Show us your pareidolia images" topic to mock you.

We all see so many different things in the field, and online, that we can be impressed with look alike things.

We have a few topics like this, one that was here WAY before you even joined.  It is part of fossil hunting that we all experience to some degree or another, throughout our fossil hunting hobby. It was not put there to disparage anyone. So take a step down off the soapbox, and take your items to a local paleontologist to look at.

We are not here to bully or belittle, and I get that can be the feeling, when everyone disagrees with what you are saying, but sometimes, the more you push back against the facts and science, the more people will step up and say something. And always, it ends up with the OP's feelings hurt and feeling like we are bullies, when we are just saying what we are seeing, which is definitely NOT what you are seeing. Sorry.

 

We wish you well with your item, and will wait to see what you find out about it elsewhere.

Kind regards,

[JohnJ]

6 hours ago, Kfinn0319 said:

That has all changed now. WHEN I am finished with this, I am going to brag and rub it in. 100's of years of knowledge and experience, collectively speaking, and I am better than you. With just a few years of rock collecting, according to you.

 

As an observer of the personal independence expressed in the wide ranging knowledge and experience of TFF members, I have not witnessed them conspiratorially come together in a stand of "solidarity" to 'shut down' an honest inquiry from anyone, at any level of experience. 

 

Read other topics on this Forum.  They are full of civil disagreement, challenging questions, different perspectives, and mistakes that are part of learning.

 

At some point, I really hope you will see the Forum is just a voluntary gathering of individuals and not an 'immature and stubborn' cabal of paleontological oppression.  None of us here speak for all that are here.