johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted November 25, 2023 Author Share Posted November 25, 2023 I have sent it out to multiple museums across the state...and elsewhere. None have any mammal ear bones in their collection to compare it to. I'm still waiting on responses from 2 museums out there that I think might provide a definitive answer and have a match. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted November 25, 2023 Share Posted November 25, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 On 11/17/2023 at 11:22 AM, johnnyvaldez7.jv said: @Plantguy did I see a thread from 2015 where you had a bison ear bone... was it a tympanic bulla and did it look like this subject bone? Hi Johnny, Very cool example! I have some messages out myself as well trying to confirm some of the material I have. The one I have that has a tentative confirmation that its a bulla/petrous from a bison/bos and is similar to your is below. Interestingly enough the images I find that are similar to this guy also say its from a seal which is intriguing. Its actually claimed to have been found in Iowa with some bison bones. I'm also trying to acquire another example. More as I run across something definitive! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 (edited) I was told yesterday by a paleontologist guy that this was a petrosal... the inner ear bone beneath the tympanic. He doesn't know from what yet but is gonna challenge his students Friday to get an ID. Does a petrosal have an external acoustic meatus or an inner acoustic meatus? I'd think because it's an inner bone it would have an inner and the tympanic an external. I ran thru a bunch of images last night of petrosals and they seem comparable just have to find the right one. Edited February 1 by johnnyvaldez7.jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Hey Johnny, I've still not made alot of progress on either research or my garage skull dissection project. I'd be interested in what the students come up with!! The inner earbone terminology I havent sorted out for land mammals as it seems different folks use some of the terms loosely, me included. Just havent had the time to do the reading/figure it out. For what its worth I think you are looking at the tympanic bulla part of the temporal bone as you and the others have said. I dont think its the petrous part. The cow? skull I have has a bulla that is only about 1.5 inches/38.5mm across, smaller than your example. I plan to dissect at least one of the bullas just to see what their internal nature is. It doesnt seem to have the lobes yours does but I'm playing it with it so I can understand the anatomy and I really want to get my hands on a bison complete skull or photo. the bison skull I do have is missing most of the temporal bone but it does have the petrous part. Here's a couple views of the cow skull/bulla. Very similar to the example Bobby showed above. Ive started cutting/ separating it from the skull in hopes of seeing all of the parts in their anatomical position. I think Brandy mentioned camel in the thread somewhere...Here's a photo for reference from an extant Camel showing the bulla and the other components. It doesnt have a scale which seems strange. Maybe I missed a reference to it somewhere not in the photo itself... From: Anatomical and morphological study of the petrous bone in camels (Camelus dromedarius) G.M. Allouch, M.A. Al-Wabel and S.K. Mahmood More as I get the chance...Good luck with the ID hunt! Regards, Chirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 @PlantguyThank you for that additional information. I was looking at the camel reference image you have here... and I was wondering if this could be (on mine) the groove for petrous nerve? It's kinda hard to see it in that image but I think it's similar. I always thought that perhaps mine was broken there and that groove was exposed... now I'm thinking it's not broken at all, and it's supposed to be like that. I thought mine was a tympanic bulla as well because of that inflated part and the external acoustic meatus. I'll be interested in what his university students find. When I try to find something similar from all the images I've seen online of various ear bones... the two things I look for the most to compare that give me pause is the location and size of the inflated part of the bulla on one side and on the other side is this "facet" that I have not seen on anything yet. I think when I can find this facet I've found what I'm looking for. Here's a picture of the groove and of the facet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Ok I've sectioned part of the skull but havent removed all of the bone attachments which are blocking a clearer view of how the ear components are positioned but this shakey video will show the arrangement. You can actually see a groove which I hadnt noticed before. Once I get some time I'll cut out more of the bone and the view will be clearer...not gonna happen this weekend unfortunately. So I wonder since my critter is also part of the bovid family would bison/buffalo also have that feature??...I dont know...Your unknown looks more robust but until I get more measurements I'm not sure the similarity/comparison is even fair. I do want to section this guy to see what the openings/internal structure, maybe next weekend. Regards, Chris VID_20240204_001017.mp4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) @Plantguy Thank you! Very cool video. I know lots of members appreciate what you're doing. As you sent this I was looking back at some of my photos and some of the comments. I saw one that mentioned this. Septate. It says it means, "having or partitioned by a septum"... and septum means, " a wall diving a cavity or structure into smaller ones". Looking at the interior of this... would this be considered divided into chambers by a wall and could this be considered a septate bulla? There definitely looks like walls within dividing it. Or would it only have one single wall dividing it I wonder? Edited February 4 by johnnyvaldez7.jv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 https://www.imaios.com/en/vet-anatomy/anatomical-structure/septum-bullae-11073889668 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229543105_Partitions_in_the_carnivoran_auditory_bulla_Their_formation_and_significance_for_systematics Thought I'd share info I'm finding about septate bulla if anyone is interested. Edited February 4 by johnnyvaldez7.jv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahnmut Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Hi again. just some thoughts on septa: as I have stated in other places before, I am just an amateur regarding palaeontology and comparative anatomy, but speaking from my education in (human) anatomy, the structure of your find would qualify for being called septate. Though medically speaking thats somewhat of a relative term: with two named cavities next to each other, the septum in between is rarely mentioned. When you find a septum dividing what is usually one cavity, then thats diagnostically interesting. So assuming the default mode ( primitive condition?) is one cavity, I´d say yours is septate/partitioned. By the way, as far as I understand the references, in English septated is tendencially used rather for acquired conditions/ pathologies like in "septated cyst", while septate is used for variations like "septate uterus". Cheers, J 2 Try to learn something about everything and everything about something Thomas Henry Huxley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) In Wikipedia under Feliformia, I found this: "In feliforms, the auditory bullae are double-chambered, composed of two bones joined by a septum. Caniforms have single-chambered or partially divided auditory bullae, composed of a single bone." Here's the link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliformia Caniforms would include bears, dogs, wolves so I could exclude any of those right? I'm still searching for more information and will post more. I know I'm all over the place but I'm just trying to see what I can exclude and what I can consider. Edited February 4 by johnnyvaldez7.jv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) Wow. Received this email today about my earbone. I'm beyond excited about it. @Shellseeker @Boesse @Lorne Ledger @CDiggs @fossilus @Brandy Cole @Mahnmut @Plantguy @grandpa @automech @garyc Edited February 12 by johnnyvaldez7.jv 3 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Oh WOW! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, johnnyvaldez7.jv said: Wow. Received this email today about my earbone. I'm beyond excited about it. Johnny, I just consider all the effort you have put in tracking down an identification. It is a GREAT feeling. On this one, you have lead the charge to extend the knowledge on every felid tympanic bulla for all the members of TFF. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 @Shellseeker Thank you. I'm happy being a part of this, learning from those of you who are light years ahead in knowledge, and contributing what I can. It is a great feeling for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) That’s awesome! Great job sticking with it and reaching out to the experts. It’s a very cool and unique find Edited February 12 by garyc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Johnny, That is fantastic news--mighty spectacular! It was intriguing before it had an owner ID. So cool! Thanks for chasing this one and keeping us posted! Congrats! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Whoa…. 🥇🥇 And now every drop of rain is a thorn in your side until the river drops and you can find the rest of the kitty. Jp 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 5 minutes ago, Balance said: Whoa…. 🥇🥇 And now every drop of rain is a thorn in your side until the river drops and you can find the rest of the kitty. Jp We really needed a good river rise, but I need it to go down now while work is slow! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 @Balance I'm trying to find the rest! The radius bone I found that is either smilodon or jaguar was found a short distance downriver from this ear bone... and the canine downriver from that. I'm in the right spot... but @garyc is right... we needed the river rise big time. I picked my spots clean before the flood. Now there's stuff everywhere... I just need the river level a little lower. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 13 hours ago, johnnyvaldez7.jv said: Now there's stuff everywhere... I just need the river level a little lower. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Fantastic find. Thanks for keeping us updated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyvaldez7.jv Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 @Brandy Cole you called it right away when you said it was an auditory bulla. Thanks for that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilus Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Congratulations! Very cool!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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