Adventures in Balance. A Peace River fossil journal.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Balance said:

A little thing I picked up today from the sieve. Need @Shellseeker’s piece from the last trip  😉

 

I am not sure,  Jp  

I have been considering the possibility these may be Gomph.  And Do you have talents putting piece parts together?  Match texture,  width of the exposed enamel,  etc 

We need some TFF members to chime in on whether they think these pieces are Mastodon,  Gomphothere or Canttell....

 

[Randyw]

I’m thinking gomphothere myself but I’m wrong a lot LOL!

[Notidanodon]

@Shellseeker I would say this one is a juvenile gw, serrations are too coarse for a nurse shark, but then again I’m not too familiar with the nurse sharks of that area  

[Balance]

@Shellseeker @Randyw

 

I agree with Gomphophere. Shovel tuskers. I 
was looking last night in bed , but past out and woke up with the phone kinda fallen on my face… 

 

I think I have this part-

 

Sun and Fun Airshow today. Full report tonight.  I hope. 
 

Jp

 

Side bar: Jack, I think you should be aware by now that giving me a new challenge (fossil repair) is like giving my brain crack. I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna do it in a deep dive of information absorption.  😊

 

ASD/ADHD brains operate on stimulus. I’m always looking for dopamine because my brain doesn’t make enough naturally. You ask if i ever tire? No. Lol. Not until I literally crash. My brain is after stimuli all day and night. I love to make things and I also love adventure. Add in the hyper focus of looking through a sieve of gravel for rewards and fossil hunting is All of my favorite things to do. 
 

Hence why ADHD folks are often extreme athletes and have extreme professions. Did you know the Blue Angels pilots are almost all ADHD? Seriously. It takes a level of hyper focus outside normal mental operations to be that acute. Now, ask those same pilots where they left their keys? No idea…

 

 I can guarantee it’s the first flat surface they came too after the car. 😂

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Notidanodon said:

@Shellseeker I would say this one is a juvenile gw, serrations are too coarse for a nurse shark, but then again I’m not too familiar with the nurse sharks of that area  

Thanks for the response.  I was with Jp at one of his new locations on the Peace River when I found this.. I always "track"  fauna I find at specific locations.  While I have found possibly 50 GWs at other places,  this is exactly the 3rd GW I have found in the Peace River in over 15 years. That fact alone I find amazing. 

So, mentally I was not ready to identify a Peace River find as a Great White. 

 

As fortune would have it,  Although I have not found a Nurse Shark tooth in over 4 years in the Peace River, This one showed up yesterday.  Happenstance

 

[MuckyBottles]

On 4/14/2024 at 11:20 AM, Shellseeker said:

Thanks for the response.  I was with Jp at one of his new locations on the Peace River when I found this.. I always "track"  fauna I find at specific locations.  While I have found possibly 50 GWs at other places,  this is exactly the 3rd GW I have found in the Peace River in over 15 years. That fact alone I find amazing. 

So, mentally I was not ready to identify a Peace River find as a Great White. 

 

As fortune would have it,  Although I have not found a Nurse Shark tooth in over 4 years in the Peace River, This one showed up yesterday.  Happenstance

 

I've "heard" that an angustiden was found in the peace by one on the heads of one of the tour groups, but i cannot confirm.

[Balance]

                                      

                                    

 

 

Returning to @Shellseeker and I’s new spot had been on my mind for weeks. Just knowing it’s there has been keeping my imagination occupied while I made it through a couple grueling weeks of work. Grateful, but allowed to be tired. 
 

——

 

Shoveling and sifting turned into hours. Weather was perfect. Very excited to be head back soon with Jack and LA. Big plans!

 

Picked up a few things….

 

After several days of drying here’s the cleaned up and photographed group. 

 

Gomphophere tooth fragment. Shovel tusker! It’s very delicate. I understand why these are In pieces. 

 

This is a true mastodon tooth but I believe I have this section of the Gomph version. 

 

I found this awesome drawing while looking for info. Really helped me see the difference. 

 

 

Next up we have a beautiful bison p3 and a couple of camelid fragments. I learned a little trick. p3 has 3 squiggly sections. p4 has 4… nifty

While mammal teeth are fresh on the mind here are two mysteries. I believe them to be incisors? Any ideas??

 

A true bounty of tortoise spurs and maybe a Glyptodont spur in there too! Gator teeth were a plenty. I think a couple croc teeth too. (top right)

 

Best Equus ear bone I’ve found. It’s really fascinating. The fine details are still there. I’m gonna spend some good periods of time looking at this. 

 

Deer antlers , a Cervid tooth frag and a “almost“ horse tooth.    

 

Eagle ray teeth bottom right

Aetobatus, perhaps A. arcuatus, Miocene (ID courtesy of CoCo)

 

Mammoth frags. So many. Here’s a few lookers. I’m hopeful a chunked is coming soon. 

 

 

The tiny bone project gained what appears to be a hefty delivery of carpal tarsal bones. Included with them are two partial astragalus. Bison and white tail deer. That small sesamoid in the bottom left belongs to a very large and very cool animal or a camel. Could go either way. 😊 I think. More on that.

 

Four of them look to be a unciform, lunate, trapezoid, and a cuneiform. Most likely tapir.  More on these soon. Especially if that sesamoid ends up being a sloth.  

 

Found my first “Peace sign”. Bucket list item crossed off.  Some turtle shell pieces too. I believe the center shell piece with three sections is a ‘centrum’. 

 

@Fin Lover helped me narrow this down to  Isurus. Carcharodon hastalis is the current internet name. 

Great to have found my first “Mako”. Next time holding out for a complete version!

ID for this became very difficult due to several names  for the species “mako”

 

 

Keeping with the fin family these are some highlights from the Tiger and Hemi teeth collected this trip. I cropped the darn rule out but those tigers are all a good 1” -1.5” across 

 

Physogaleus contortus- . I believe these all to be this species. Not good with sharks teeth yet. I’m humbled by those who know all these species little nuances.  Total in my collection is now up to 10! (If my ID holds) 

 

Who’s for a couple mysteries?!? 
 

Number1: what has this pattern in the enamel??? I’ve seen it before. Even feel like I should know but I’m blank…

 

Number 2

 

Im thinking part of a once massive alligator tooth but I’m not convinced???

 

We head back out soon. Real soon. There’s a plan. I’m ready and if the ideas pan out these post should really start getting interesting! 

Please correct errors and guide when possible!

 

Keep the faith and try to do good. 
 

Jp and Millie 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20 by Balance
I’m ADhD ASD and I have terrible grammar, barely understand tense of words and have the spelling memory of a 6 year old. I’m trying. 😂

[EphemeralMoose]

If I understand it correctly, I think your concept of a 'half-bank' may actually be either channel bars (many different types exist) or may be shelving on the bank. I think the latter may be closer to what you mean. Shelving can indicate the ordinary high water mark which is the highest flow a stream will normally see, excluding extreme flow conditions. You can think of it as a miniature flood plain that still exists within the channel of the stream.

 

If my interpretation is wrong, then I would love to help you find the correct terminology if you don't already know it.

[Balance]

@EphemeralMoose thanks! I gotta get to bed but I looked up shelving. Looks like that’s probably correct. Here’s a photo of what I call “half banks”. I guess the way I see it there is a bank half way to the real bank. 😂👍🏅

 

Jp

 

It’s midnight plus. Please excuse my drawing. A rule was used. To be fair. 
 

 

[Coco]

5 hours ago, Balance said:

 Eagle ray teeth bottom left (gotta go copy and paste the real name for Coco) 

 

Aetobatus, perhaps A. arcuatus, Miocene

 

Coco

[Shellseeker]

10 hours ago, Balance said:

Returning to @Shellseeker and I’s new spot had been on my mind for weeks. Just knowing it’s there has been keeping my imagination occupied while I made it through a couple grueling weeks of work. Grateful, but allowed to be tired. 

 I love your posts , Jp but they are definitely "drinking from a Firehose"... and thus very intimidating. 

I have 6 or 8 of the topics that you raise that I really would like to get into,  but I'll try to limit myself to only a few where I more likely add value..

10 hours ago, Balance said:

Who’s for a couple mysteries?!?   Me, Shellseeker...

Number1: what has this pattern in the enamel??? I’ve seen it before. Even feel like I should know but I’m blank…

 

The only thing the pattern reminds me of is Sting Ray mouthplate and it is not that...

The most important photo is the last one... How 'thick" is that enamel..  It does not seem to be Mastodon or Mammoth..  I am wondering if it can be Rhino... It seems to be 32 x 10 mm but you can tell us exactly. That size of chunk would be off a LARGE mammal tooth.. @digit see lots of Large Mammal enamel.  Possibly he will recognize something.. Also, I love that picture above has Rynchotherium enamel wrapping around the tusk... Ken has handled Rynchotherium tusks and I do not think that is the way it occurs.. more like a straight band along the underside..

 

 

[digit]

10 hours ago, Balance said:

Found my first “Peace sign”. Bucket list item crossed off.  Some turtle shell pieces too. I believe the center shell piece with three sections is a ‘centrum’. 

 

Glad you finally found your peace. Technically, that bone on the plastron is known as an entoplastron. If I'm understanding you correctly the 'centrum' "with three sections" is possibly the left piece in the middle row on the right side of the photo above. The other pieces of the carapace surrounding it are neurals 1, 3 & 5--how odd! Your "centrum" is the anterior half of the nuchal bone (highlighted in magenta below).

 

11 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

The most important photo is the last one... How 'thick" is that enamel..  It does not seem to be Mastodon or Mammoth..  I am wondering if it can be Rhino... It seems to be 32 x 10 mm but you can tell us exactly. That size of chunk would be off a LARGE mammal tooth.. @digit see lots of Large Mammal enamel.  Possibly he will recognize something.. Also, I love that picture above has Rynchotherium enamel wrapping around the tusk... Ken has handled Rynchotherium tusks and I do not think that is the way it occurs.. more like a straight band along the underside.

Agreed. That one caught my eye. They resemble the growth bands that Jack is so familiar with on cetacean teeth--but this is certainly the wrong shape for that. Rhino did cross my mind but it is unlike anything I've pulled from the Peace and so I can't hope to speak even marginally authoritatively. @Harry Pristis may be more familiar with this texture and may weigh in on this one.

 

I too laughed at the candy cane enamel spiraling on the Rhynchotherium in the drawing. This is the genus we have at the Montbrook site and there is a slight curve to the enameled band on large tusks but I don't think it even makes one complete revolution around the tusk in even the big 8 foot tusk we have (that we are reassembling). Here is a link to the post I made a while back when we were discussing gomph enameled bands.

 

https://www.thefossilforum.com/topic/112569-gomphothere-ivory-schreger-angle/?do=findComment&comment=1245124

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

10 hours ago, Balance said:

Number 2

Im thinking part of a once massive alligator tooth but I’m not convinced???

 

Not Alligator.  That wide band of striated silica is what will identify this find.  No alligator has that kind of banding within its teeth..  or any other mammal tooth I can think of... Mastodon would be closest, but not really ...

Could it be a broken segment of a mouthplate from a Sting Ray or puffer fish?  What else has mouth plates?

http://www.elasmo.com/frameMe.html?file=batoids/manta/m_biro.html&menu=bin/menu_batoid-alt.html

11 hours ago, Balance said:

The tiny bone project gained what appears to be a hefty delivery of carpal tarsal bones. Included with them are two partial astragalus. Bison and white tail deer. That small sesamoid in the bottom left belongs to a very large and very cool animal or a camel. Could go either way. 😊 I think. More on that.

 

I got one of these also Jp,  from my Pliocene site back in January: There are Camal/Llama there..

 

Sooner or later,  someone (maybe us) will recognize this one....

[Balance]

@Shellseeker

 

”like drinking from a firehose” 

 

How do we eat a mastodon ? One bite at a time… 😉

 

If a mod would like to label this journal with a warning label I would not be offended.  

“Caution! Frequent brain dumps occuing in this area”

 

The overload is part of the hyper focus aspect of my brain. Believe it or not I spent a good hour editing it down to fewer words 😂😂 I’m excited. It’s important to my brain that all aspects of the excitement be understood. As such it’s details on detail on detail. Most of which aren’t necessary.  Throw in my poor grammar understanding and phrasing issues and I believe it’s confusing. Try being inside my head. 😊

 

Ill get you your specs ASAP. 
 

Jp

[digit]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Not Alligator.  That wide band of striated silica is what will identify this find.  No alligator has that kind of banding within its teeth..  or any other mammal tooth I can think of... Mastodon would be closest, but not really ...

I was thinking the end of a loop of a mammoth tooth.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[digit]

59 minutes ago, Balance said:

”like drinking from a firehose” 

I am well familiar with that phrase. My wife often comments on my loquaciousness as trying to take a sip from a fire hose.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Balance]

Here are better photos of the mysteries. 
 

@Shellseeker the enamel is 2mm thick. 

 

[Balance]

@Shellseeker I believe we have camelid sesamoids. There’s a sesamoid type bone on a sloths “wrist” that I have thought I’ve had a couple times but no go. 
 

Im compiling all these in the “Tiny Bones Project “ and eventually I’ll get back to working on the guide. Only so much time. The time now is the time to dig. 

 

I believe you’ll see ours far left. 
 

camel.                    Cow.                  Horse

 

Sloth - kinda lunate shape. So might not be a sesamoid on the sloth at all. This paper has the info I need to learn the bones. In the bookmarks to read for the project. 
 

https://doc.rero.ch/record/13459/files/PAL_E140.pdf

Here’s bison hind and front

 

Tapir - I think we’re collecting mostly these because of how bonkers they are in shape and the size is right. Again, I’ve got a bin separated out of tapir possibles. So I’ll get them IDENTIFIED at some point. 

Edited April 20 by Balance

[digit]

Ah, click!

 

Gomphothere molar chunks. This (hopefully) explains the patterned surface that was looking like growth lines before.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

[Balance]

@digit Yes!! Awesome 🏅🏅

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Balance said:

Here are better photos of the mysteries. 
 

@Shellseeker the enamel is 2mm thick. 

 

1st one..  You have HunterSchreger Bands !!! Your choice is Equus, Tapir,  and Rhino... 

Here is my Rhino comparisons...

JUST when I convinced myself that these were HSB,  they are not... Gomph and Mastodon have enamel as you show and Ken shows the outside patterns..  So Gomph it is ,  and I hear that you are finding Gomph in your new sites !!!  All comes to those who wait..

 

 

On the 2nd one with these new photos ,  I am starting to wonder if it also Rhino,  just based on the bands... but I am far from certain...

Have you been playing around in the Rhino patch lately, Jp ?

[Shellseeker]

56 minutes ago, Balance said:

@Shellseeker I believe we have camelid sesamoids. There’s a sesamoid type bone on a sloths “wrist” that I have thought I’ve had a couple times but no go. 
 

Im compiling all these in the “Tiny Bones Project “ and eventually I’ll get back to working on the guide. Only so much time. The time now is the time to dig. 

 

I believe you’ll see ours far left. 
 

camel.                    Cow.                  Horse

 

Sloth - kinda lunate shape. So might not be a sesamoid on the sloth at all. This paper has the info I need to learn the bones. In the bookmarks to read for the project. 

Thanks Jp,  impressive research on your part..  I am very pleased to label this as a Llama sesamoid bone.

I did label it originally as an Ungual,  and note some similarity to both the Camel and Bos Unguals  in your photo above...

[Balance]

                    Full Load on a low river

 

 

Went out yesterday with my daughter LA, Jack (@Shellseeker) , and his son Jack.  Full boat! Can’t use a big enough adjective to describe how great of a day it was. Real memory maker. Fossils ended up second this Sunday. 
 

About 2 min into the trip the muffler clamp broke and the muffler fell off the motor. So, if you had a little Jon boat riding low and slow pass by that sounded like an air boat, that was us. 😂

 

LA was ready. She had new water shoes, wet suit pants, and a new shovel. Very fancy. Her previous complaint was she fell off the edge of the shovel trying to dig. So I made a little helper platform that kinda doubles as a back stop. You know, keep the giant Megs from sliding off. 😊 - drilled holes in it and put 700lb gaffers tape on the handle to make it a ‘real’  fossil hunting shovel. Oh yah. Painted it pink because, of course!

Jack worked with her several times throughout the day. Kids always listen to the stuff they won’t hear when another interested adult shows them. I’ve been trying to get LA to hook up with the technique of sifting for a few trips. Jack got her using her shovel and got her sifting. She found the first and only Meg of the day too! After the find she was so juiced up she swam and played like a nut for an hour straight just to burn off the high. I believe she named her sieve Agnes. 😊

Thanks , Jack. (Even if I suspect this tooth fell in from a different route than the shovel 😉)

 

LA’s baby Meg

 

 

It was an oddball day in the sieve. I’m still learning the layers of this new location and it’s a tad “HOT/COLD” in the makeup/delivery. Having 3 of us diligently working in different ways was very satisfying. So much information garnered from this trip. As usual, more questions than answers. 
 

      —There’s the standard recent float layer on top. 6”-1’ thick. Loads of sharks teeth! Mixed fossil stuff you’d expect. packed hard hard hard!
     — 1’ of absolutely perfect gravel. Loads of small teeth but nothing bigger. 
     —  2’-3’  no small teeth but 1/2 broken meg frags start to appear, mako and possibly a great white, and 4! Horse teeth in one hole. 
  

Jack dug upriver of me about 10’. I believe he was mostly digging surface level and began going down into the center layer void before we packed up.

 

Jack3 hunted like a pinball machine. Little here, little there… few attempts into the center void but nothing far. He found a bunch of teeth and thankfully he found the tortoise spur or we might still be there.

(At least one tortoise spur must be found before we can call it. Rule # 421-pr)
 

I dug straight down. All day. Huge hole. Probably 3’ of cone shape hole about 3’ deep in center.  I had a second “accident hole” that was LA’s hole I mistook for mine and accidentally dug in for a while but otherwise, same hole all day. 
 

So the discussion was why the void layer. I found large “prize” fossils not too deep down and we all found incredible amounts of small teeth in the upper and middle layers but there were no larger fossils to be found in the middle. I’d say the rarity of the fossils we have found here is also higher grade. 
 

We speculated and discussed how it mimicked an area that had been cleared out but it’s not. Trust us, it’s not. So why the void layer in what’s essentially beautiful gravel?? Why did I find a bunch of larger pieces and Jack found few only 10’ away?  Luck? 

Hopefully Jack has mad a report or will add to this conversation. 
 

Here are the finds. I used a 3/8” screen so there’s a noticeable decline in the number of teeth. Especially lower hemi’s. Not sure if I like the faster sieve or the lower Hemi teeth and dolphin test more?? 

Here’s the half Meg streak  I went on for several sieves, some of the tigers and a few of LA’s pieces from her sieve. The golden bone frag is actually part of a dugong vertebrae! Mammoth chunk as thick as a horse tooth and very pretty shell section. She was pleased. 

 

She also found a para / symphysel. 😂 I don’t think Jack was responsible but he probably did wish it was on his side. 

 

 

 

 

A dolphin periodic. Anyone know how it articulates with the tympanic bulla? I have diagrams from online but I can’t figure it out. Could be I have a right and left?

 

Great white or small Meg? (I apologize for the general names. Not even started learning sharks teeth yet) - if this is GW that’s numb2 for this spot. 

 

Nurse shark?
 

 

 

LA found this sawfish rosteral, sea urchin spine,  and armadillo osteoderms. A little Tamiami shell cast too. 

 

 

 

Found my first complete horse tooth this trip! Then I found 3 more!!! The lowers were in the same sieve. I believe they could go together. Jack says to keep looking until I find the rest of the jaw. Heard , Chef!

 

 

 

 

So I truly didn’t this this was going to happen but look at what happens when you put Jacks Gomphophere tooth from last month with the one I found last week… 🤯  @dries85 level luck! 

 

Gonna wait and see if I can find some more… 

 

 

 

 

Keep the faith and try to do good! 

Jp

 

Edited April 22 by Balance

[Shellseeker]

21 minutes ago, Balance said:

Went out yesterday with my daughter LA, Jack (@Shellseeker) , and his son Jack.  Full boat! Can’t use a big enough adjective to describe how great of a day it was. Real memory maker. Fossils ended up second this Sunday. 

Wow, I have to fess up ,  I have not taken the time to sort and photo all my finds... I will add something later.. 

New presents from this great day.  I absolutely cherish that 1st photo... A picture of a memory that will last a lifetime,  with my son and your daughter. It may come as a surprise to you,  but I do not often go fossil hunting with a 9 year old.  She definitely adds spice and excitement to the journey.. I hit it off with LA almost immediately by complimenting her Dad...

I have a few of my own photos to pass back...

Here is Jp,  aggressively going after that 5th Horse tooth...

 

and LA... celebrating in deep water, after the Meg...

 

Our find of the day is that Dolphin / Whale periotic.  I will identify it when I have time if @Boesse does not see it first.. 

On the GW or Meg,  GWs are SUPER rare in the Peace and it has more Meg shape,  but I was uncomfortable with the almost non_existent Bourlette. 

The Sea Urchin spine is Prionocidaris cookei.  Just found that out with help from my friend @Sacha

 

It is unbelievable that you fitted those pieces of Gomph together like a jigsaw puzzle. I does not happen that discrete finds of the same fauna from a general area but different locations  just happen to fit together. 

As you say,  A great day.... Thanks for the memories

[Shellseeker]

JP, 

Here is a picture on how the Periotic/Petrosal "fits" with the Tympanic Bulla.  

 

Another --- from a Beluga Whale