Tyrannosaur vertebra?

[AranHao]

Hello

May I know if this is the vertebrae of the tyrannosaur? And is this the tailbone?

It comes from the Jordan, Garfield County, Montana

size: 3.35 x 3.2 x 1.5"

Thanks

 

 

IMG_6739.HEIC IMG_6737.HEIC IMG_6738.HEIC

Edited November 25, 2023 by AranHao

[Nanotyrannus35]

It does look like a caudal vertebra of a theropod, but I can't tell if it's tyrannosaur. It looks a bit thin to be tyrannosaur.

[AranHao]

5 minutes ago, Nanotyrannus35 said:

It does look like a caudal vertebra of a theropod, but I can't tell if it's tyrannosaur. It looks a bit thin to be tyrannosaur.

Thank you~

The seller said it belongs to Nanotyrannus, because there are related materials nearby and the quantity of materials is not enough to assemble the complete skeleton, so it was disassembled for sale.

The seller is very reputable, in fact, I still want to know if it can be identified with the naked eye.

 

[TyBoy]

Looks like a Tyrannosaurid vertebra, cross-section can get thin.   If there was other Nanotyrannus material around I would agree it fits

Edited November 25, 2023 by TyBoy

[AranHao]

2 minutes ago, TyBoy said:

Looks like a Tyrannosaurid vertebra, cross-section can get thin.   If there was other Nanotyrannus material around I would agree it fits

Thank you!

[musicnfossils]

Yeah looks tyrannosaur 

[Joy_Fossils]

I think it is Tyrannosaur. It looks very similar the vert in this image from the Prehistoric Alberta Fossil Forum.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/prehistoricalberta/drumheller-area-22-jun-2014-t19403076.html

 

[hadrosauridae]

6 hours ago, TyBoy said:

Looks like a Tyrannosaurid vertebra, cross-section can get thin.   If there was other Nanotyrannus material around I would agree it fits

The problem is that line of thinking is highly prone to mis-identifications!  You have to remember what the ecology of the terrain was..  These aren't often isolated animals laying by themselves and getting covered with sediment.  This was a swampy, braided river environment with most material being washed downstream until it hits holes of snags that cause it start gathering, or just randomly spread along the river bottoms.  If its not an articulated set of finds, you shouldn't assume that it belongs to something found "nearby".

Edited November 26, 2023 by hadrosauridae

[AranHao]

Thank you for everyone's response. I have a doubt. I found that the neural canal attached to the caudal vertebrae of T-Rex（Please forgive me, it's difficult to find the Nano） only occupies about 80% of its top position, but mine has a 100% cross-section.and it seems that my caudal vertebrae have a larger area of neural canal connections.

 

[AranHao]

18 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

The problem is that line of thinking is highly prone to mis-identifications!  You have to remember what the ecology of the terrain was..  These aren't often isolated animals laying by themselves and getting covered with sediment.  This was a swampy, braided river environment with most material being washed downstream until it hits holes of snags that cause it start gathering, or just randomly spread along the river bottoms.  If its not an articulated set of finds, you should assume that it belongs to something found "nearby".

Yes, what you said makes sense, so I would rather objectively analyze its identity through the vertebrae. What do you think its ID？

[hadrosauridae]

10 minutes ago, AranHao said:

Yes, what you said makes sense, so I would rather objectively analyze its identity through the vertebrae. What do you think its ID？

 

I wish I could give you an answer, but Im not familiar enough all the possibilities.  The thinness is really throwing, but I dont know if it is natural or the result of plastic deformation.

[AranHao]

14 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

I wish I could give you an answer, but Im not familiar enough all the possibilities.  The thinness is really throwing, but I dont know if it is natural or the result of plastic deformation.

There is a large area of fragmentation in the upper position, and adhesive is used for reinforcement under UV light.I hope it can be helpful.

 

[AranHao]

1 hour ago, hadrosauridae said:

The problem is that line of thinking is highly prone to mis-identifications!  You have to remember what the ecology of the terrain was..  These aren't often isolated animals laying by themselves and getting covered with sediment.  This was a swampy, braided river environment with most material being washed downstream until it hits holes of snags that cause it start gathering, or just randomly spread along the river bottoms.  If its not an articulated set of finds, you shouldn't assume that it belongs to something found "nearby".

This is the seller's original statement, perhaps it is difficult to obtain a 100% confirmed ID from the fossil itself.

 

 

[jikohr]

Perhaps a process of elimination could narrow it down. Struthi and Anzu would be the most likely to masquerade as small Tyrannosaur remains (happens all the time with claws). Here's pics of a Struthi Caudal from Powder River County, Montana to compare to (IDed by Troodon a while back). Does anyone have some pics of Anzu caudals to compare to?

[AranHao]

44 minutes ago, jikohr said:

Perhaps a process of elimination could narrow it down. Struthi and Anzu would be the most likely to masquerade as small Tyrannosaur remains (happens all the time with claws). Here's pics of a Struthi Caudal from Powder River County, Montana to compare to (IDed by Troodon a while back). Does anyone have some pics of Anzu caudals to compare to?

Wow, thank you for the picture. Unfortunately, Frank is not on the Forum anymore. Perhaps only experts like Pete Larson can make a final decision..🫤

[AranHao]

Sorry to bother you, what is your opinion?

@jpc

[jpc]

7 hours ago, Joy_Fossils said:

I think it is Tyrannosaur. It looks very similar the vert in this image from the Prehistoric Alberta Fossil Forum.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/prehistoricalberta/drumheller-area-22-jun-2014-t19403076.html

 

I respectfully disagree.  The one from Alberta has a very large and obvious pleuroocoel.  The OP fossil does not seem to have one.  The rex caudals I have worked on are much less flat.  I don't know what to call this, but the deep concaveness of the centrum does indeed  suggest theropod.   

[AranHao]

5 minutes ago, jpc said:

I respectfully disagree.  The one from Alberta has a very large and obvious pleuroocoel.  The OP fossil does not seem to have one.  The rex caudals I have worked on are much less flat.  I don't know what to call this, but the deep concaveness of the centrum does indeed  suggest theropod.   

Thank you!

[Joy_Fossils]

19 hours ago, jpc said:

I respectfully disagree.  The one from Alberta has a very large and obvious pleuroocoel.  The OP fossil does not seem to have one.  The rex caudals I have worked on are much less flat.  I don't know what to call this, but the deep concaveness of the centrum does indeed  suggest theropod.   

Sorry to go off topic in a fossil id discussion, but what is a pleuroocoel in a vertebra? I'm a beginner, so I'm still learning about these specifics! 

 

Also, this is just a random guess but maybe the reason the vertebra is so thin is because it was compressed and became distorted while fossilizing? 

I can't seem to find an image of a distorted vertebra, but I found one of a Tyrannosaur skull that shows distortion.

 

[hadrosauridae]

33 minutes ago, Joy_Fossils said:

Sorry to go off topic in a fossil id discussion, but what is a pleuroocoel in a vertebra? I'm a beginner, so I'm still learning about these specifics! 

 

Also, this is just a random guess but maybe the reason the vertebra is so thin is because it was compressed and became distorted while fossilizing? 

I can't seem to find an image of a distorted vertebra, but I found one of a Tyrannosaur skull that shows distortion.

 

 

 

edited to remove my incorrect information.  I was confusing other vertebral "coelus" terms.

Yes, shape changes during fossilization is called plastic deformation.  Its pretty common to some degree in many fossils, but I dont know if it could be totally responsible for the very flattened profile we see here

Edited November 27, 2023 by hadrosauridae

[jpc]

the pleurocoel is the hollow area on the upper end of the centrum.  You can see it well in the second photo of the Alberta specimen.  But I have to correct myself... based on the B & w photo above of rex caudals (which are from Brochu's tome based on the Sue specimen), the caudals don;t have pleutoceols like there are in the dorsals.   

[hadrosauridae]

1 minute ago, jpc said:

the pleurocoel is the hollow area on the upper end of the centrum.  You can see it well in the second photo of the Alberta specimen.  But I have to correct myself... based on the B & w photo above of rex caudals (which are from Brochu's tome based on the Sue specimen), the caudals don;t have pleutoceols like there are in the dorsals.   

 

Is the pleurocoel the neural canal?  I thought it referred to the shape of the ends.

[jpc]

The pleurocoel is circled in red in this photo

[hadrosauridae]

1 minute ago, jpc said:

The pleurocoel is circled in red in this photo

 

Got it! thanks.

[Guns]

nice pick up .