Hemiauchenia M3

[Shellseeker]

I decided to separate the 2 finds here from my finds from Saturday. One is pretty enough to have its own thread..

This is a upper jaw section of Hemiauchenia macrocephala from the University of Florida Vertebrate Paleontology Database.

M3, M2, M1 upper right maxilla

Here is almost my best find Saturday...

As I picked it out of the sieve, I knew it was an upper jaw camelid, most likely Hemiauchenia. I took it over to my kayak and snapped a couple of photos. I have been educated , mostly by Harry in  other threads to recognize 100 % enamel teeth (no dentine or cementum) and what that means... In this case,  an young adult camel has a barely erupted tooth,  still in the process of growing roots, when it was likely killed by a predator a couple of million years ago. (I like to imagine stories).

Look at the 2nd last tooth ... all enamel,  a bare hint of root...

Initially I thought this might be the M2, but looking at this last photo, comparing to the UF 271830 jaw, I switched to the M3..  Can you see why?  I sent it to Richard Hulbert last night asking insight on the filigree pattern.

 

I said "almost" above...  There is a broken fragment of a tooth that I almost tossed (NEVER toss anything you do not recognize as a rock). 

 

 

Serrations on a 50 mm fragment !!!! That gets my imagination going.

While Megs are all over Florida,  there has never been a fragment found at this location.. It is not impossible that a Meg might have wandered in to an unlikely location.. Another possibility is Great White.. We have found some small GWs, but none over 2 inches.. This would be from a max sized GW... So , shark experts could tell me what they know about serrations from larger sharks.  these look uniform .  exact same size...

and if someone does not recognize this as Meg or GW there is yet another possibility of large teeth with serrations...

 

[Cris]

There is indeed another possibility for a large tooth with serrations. I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions, but that's where my mind went immediately.  

Any chance of additional photos? Maybe a sort of top down, though I know that will be tricky. I can't tell the thickness of the fragment well...

Super interesting fossil so far, though...

[Harry Pristis]

It doesn't appear to me to be a shark tooth frag.

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Cris said:

There is indeed another possibility for a large tooth with serrations. I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions, but that's where my mind went immediately.  

Any chance of additional photos? Maybe a sort of top down, though I know that will be tricky. I can't tell the thickness of the fragment well...

Super interesting fossil so far, though...

 

1st 2 photos, serrations under my top finger, enamel on both sides..  As you say exciting... 

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Whoa. Fingers crossed it is el gato.

Edited November 27, 2023 by johnnyvaldez7.jv

[Cris]

I only have a few fragments of Smilodon canine to compare it to, and will say that mine are not as serrated as your fragment here (maybe half as much)...but I am still pretty confident you have something like that here...We had multiple species of Smilodon in the Pleistocene and I am not sure what my species were vs yours, so that could explain the difference in serrations...But we also had cats much more rare than Smilodon with even more serrated teeth too.

I may go up to the museum's collection area sometime this coming week and if I do, I will take pics of some Smilodon canines.

[Shellseeker]

There are some things that I think I know...

 

Quote

Previously, scientists split those cats into two morphotypes, or combinations of body type and tooth shape, says Virginia Naples, a vertebrate paleontologist at NorthernIllinoisUniversity in DeKalb. One group, the dirk-toothed cats, had stout bodies, short legs, and long, narrow, finely serrated canine teeth in their upper jaws. Felines in the other group, the scimitar-toothed cats, were slimmer than the dirk-toothed cats, had longer legs and had canine teeth that also were serrated but relatively shorter and broader than those of dirk-toothed cats. 

Smilodon Canines tend not to have serrations on the underside.  Scimitar cat Canines do have serrations on the underside.  The only Simitar Cat in Florida is Xenosmilus hudsonae.  Texas has a simitar cat named Homotherium serum. 

There is a TFF thread with this China Homotherium Canine... Note the serrations and the fact that the length of the enamel is only 60 mm.

 

I have access to a Smilodon tooth photo found in the Peace River.

I am sorry I did not get a photo of the underside, but as you can "almost see" , it had no serrations. I have been unable to find a Florida Smilodon Canine tooth that has serrations.

There are a number of recreations that show us what a skull of Xenosmilus looked like.

Note the shortness of the upper canines maybe 60-70 mm. 

 

 

I believe what I have found in this fragment is a section of an Upper Canine of Xenosmilus.  Except , there is a long and winding road between believing and proving.

[Cris]

Here's a Xenosmilus tooth I found a while back. They are very, very serrated, and I do think there is a good chance that's what you have. 



The few fragments of Smildon canine I have found do have serrations, but they are not nearly as coarse as what you have, and I wouldn't be surprised if later Smilodon species lost those weak serrations altogether.

[Shellseeker]

11 minutes ago, Cris said:

Here's a Xenosmilus tooth I found a while back. They are very, very serrated, and I do think there is a good chance that's what you have. 

What a gorgeous tooth,  Cris.  Thanks for sharing.

[Balance]

The core looks to be as telling as the serrations.  Very cool stuff!

 

Jp

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Balance said:

The core looks to be as telling as the serrations.  Very cool stuff!  jp

I was thinking the same thing,  jp.  What is that groove doing inside the tooth  ? Maybe like the Smilodon from the Peace River (above) ,  there is a natural cavity down the core of the tooth.

 

[PrehistoricFlorida]

On 11/27/2023 at 8:09 PM, Shellseeker said:

There are some things that I think I know...

 

Smilodon Canines tend not to have serrations on the underside.  Scimitar cat Canines do have serrations on the underside.  The only Simitar Cat in Florida is Xenosmilus hudsonae.  Texas has a simitar cat named Homotherium serum. 

There is a TFF thread with this China Homotherium Canine... Note the serrations and the fact that the length of the enamel is only 60 mm.

 

I have access to a Smilodon tooth photo found in the Peace River.

I am sorry I did not get a photo of the underside, but as you can "almost see" , it had no serrations. I have been unable to find a Florida Smilodon Canine tooth that has serrations.

There are a number of recreations that show us what a skull of Xenosmilus looked like.

Note the shortness of the upper canines maybe 60-70 mm. 

 

 

I believe what I have found in this fragment is a section of an Upper Canine of Xenosmilus.  Except , there is a long and winding road between believing and proving.

 

Florida has numerous scimitar toothed cats - Xenomsmilus, Homotherium/Dinobastis, Nimravides, Machairodus, etc just to name a few. 

Your tooth does appear to be a section of scimitar toothed cat upper canine. It will be impossible to identify to even genus without accurate age. 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, PrehistoricFlorida said:

Your tooth does appear to be a section of scimitar toothed cat upper canine. It will be impossible to identify to even genus without accurate age. 

 

Why do I think Xenosmilus is a more likely than Homotherium/Dinobastis, Nimravides, Machairodus which also have been found in Florida? From what I can tell , most of those fossils have been found in Northern parts of the state, above Tampa. 

Xenosmilus is aged to 2.5-1.5 mya, and other Blancan fauna have been found. Also, 2 other Xenosmilus fossils found at this site. 

 

 

Not proof , just hints. It is good that I am not trying to convince anyone. 

[Shellseeker]

Nate,  not sure you'll see this, but if you do... I often do searches as I try to respond on TFF,  and I went back to a cloned Skull of Xenosmilus (pictured above)...

1st time I noticed.  the serrations are on the leading edge of its canine, but on the China Homotherium Canine (also above) on the trailing edge...  New insight for me... Is this your understanding also?

SO... smilodon = no or very weak serrations

 Homotherium = trailing edge serrations

Xenosmilus = leading edge serrations

 

[Shellseeker]

23 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Nate,  not sure you'll see this, but if you do... I often do searches as I try to respond on TFF,  and I went back to a cloned Skull of Xenosmilus (pictured above)...

1st time I noticed.  the serrations are on the leading edge of its canine, but on the China Homotherium Canine (also above) on the trailing edge...  New insight for me... Is this your understanding also?

SO... smilodon = no or very weak serrations

 Homotherium = trailing edge serrations

Xenosmilus = leading edge serrations

Homotherium serum exist in many North American locations including Texas and Canada. I found a research paper which indicates that H serum .... serrations are most clearly pronounced on the upper canines ... upon which they are present along the entire length of the anterior and posterior edges.

 

I am trying to determine if Xenosmilus also has serrations on both edges or just on the Anterior edge. On the right is a closeup of UF60000,  Xenosmilus hudsonae Skull found in Alachua County Florida. I can not quite tell from the photo is there are serrations on the canine's posterior edge

 

I always enjoy try to finding everything I can about an unusual fossil I find. Even if I never get the closure of an Identification, I learn lots of new things about the fossil along the way and that just makes the fossil (even the broken fragment of tooth) much more valuable to me.  This one is already in its own riker box.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:26 PM, Shellseeker said:

 

Why do I think Xenosmilus is a more likely than Homotherium/Dinobastis, Nimravides, Machairodus which also have been found in Florida? From what I can tell , most of those fossils have been found in Northern parts of the state, above Tampa. 

Xenosmilus is aged to 2.5-1.5 mya, and other Blancan fauna have been found. Also, 2 other Xenosmilus fossils found at this site. 

 

 

Not proof , just hints. It is good that I am not trying to convince anyone. 

 

According to Hulbert's Peace River Project, virtually all of Peace River (PR) watershed vertebrate fossils fall into two times, late Miocene and late Pleistocene. Early-mid Pleistocene (Blancan & Irvingtonian) fossils are EXTREMELY scarce (virtually nonexistent) in the PR watershed. Xenosmilus is a Blancan species that as far as I know is not recognized as a species found in the PR watershed. Based on this, in my personal collection, I have three coarsely serrated scimitar-toothed cat teeth that were found in the PR watershed which I have tentatively identified as Dinobastis serus. D. serus is also, as far as I know, not recognized by the Florida Museum as being a species found in the PR watershed (not listed on PR project faunal list), however it fits time wise whereas Xenosmilus does not.  

[PrehistoricFlorida]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:56 PM, Shellseeker said:

Nate,  not sure you'll see this, but if you do... I often do searches as I try to respond on TFF,  and I went back to a cloned Skull of Xenosmilus (pictured above)...

1st time I noticed.  the serrations are on the leading edge of its canine, but on the China Homotherium Canine (also above) on the trailing edge...  New insight for me... Is this your understanding also?

SO... smilodon = no or very weak serrations

 Homotherium = trailing edge serrations

Xenosmilus = leading edge serrations

 

 

All scimitar-toothed cat upper canines that I have encountered are serrated on both edges. Attached is a picture of my Xenosmilus upper canine that was found at Leisey Shell Pit which shows the serrations well. 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, PrehistoricFlorida said:

According to Hulbert's Peace River Project, virtually all of Peace River (PR) watershed vertebrate fossils fall into two times, late Miocene and late Pleistocene. Early-mid Pleistocene (Blancan & Irvingtonian) fossils are EXTREMELY scarce (virtually nonexistent) in the PR watershed. Xenosmilus is a Blancan species that as far as I know is not recognized as a species found in the PR watershed. Based on this, in my personal collection, I have three coarsely serrated scimitar-toothed cat teeth that were found in the PR watershed which I have tentatively identified as Dinobastis serus. D. serus is also, as far as I know, not recognized by the Florida Museum as being a species found in the PR watershed (not listed on PR project faunal list), however it fits time wise whereas Xenosmilus does not. 

Nate,  I am pleased that I agree with you and Richard,  because if I disagreed,  I would be wrong. I flagged this thread with BoneValley,  not Peace River. If you or others have found scimiter toothed cat fossils in the Peace River,  I would think that they were not Xenosmilus. 

 

"All scimitar-toothed cat upper canines that I have encountered are serrated on both edges. Attached is a picture of my Xenosmilus upper canine that was found at Leisey Shell Pit which shows the serrations well. "

 

THANKS !! I was having a difficult time using the photos of Xenosmilus skulls from ALachua county cave,  to determine that... It is EASY to see on your tooth from Leisey,  and thanks from sharing this...  Big smile,  BIG smile.  I never knew your tooth existed. 

will even cherish the photo.    Jack