Shellseeker Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Went Hunting today , 3rd time in 5 days. I am aching but heading North and my next opportunity will be April 11th. Clear water, lots of gravel, some fossils... Got a couple of more Turtle "Peace Signs", but 2 of these finds are excellent: No roots, no dentin, no cementum... just enamel... @Balance Well Jp, you know something about horses. What can you tell me about the horse that owned this tooth? and here is a 2nd tooth, same thing No roots, No dentin, No Cementum.... just enamel. and found in my 2nd last sieve.. I love late finds... keeping me digging. and this is a Big tooth.... Note that the chewing surface is barely touched and look at the detail that remains... You never see this kind of detail except when the animal died shortly after the tooth emerged.. I am not sure this one is deciduous but it is clearly unusual and close to perfect... Enjoy. 2 14 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) I really do enjoy these posts. The finds and the method of hunting is so different to anything we find here. Edited April 3 by Doctor Mud 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobites_are_awesome Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) @Doctor Mud same here though! most of the time where I collect you are either picking stuff up off the ground, Or splitting shale! Edited April 3 by trilobites_are_awesome 1 Cheers! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trilobites_are_awesome Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) I also really enjoy your posts Shellseeker! Edited April 3 by trilobites_are_awesome 1 1 Cheers! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielb Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) Thanks for sharing, and nice finds. Edited April 3 by Danielb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 9 hours ago, Doctor Mud said: I really do enjoy these posts. The finds and the method of hunting is so different to anything we find here. 2 hours ago, trilobites_are_awesome said: @Doctor Mud same here though! most of the time where I collect you are either picking stuff up off the ground, Or splitting shale! Thank you. I value TFF and am grateful to its membership from New Zealand, Michigan, Alaska, Russia, Morocco and all spots north and west who share their fossil hunting hobby with me. Even though it takes me longer to create the posts and I have friends and acquaintances who might prefer I do not share, I guess I will keep doing it. 6 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 I got one too! 😊 Deciduous teeth are so pretty. Mine came as a gift from Harry in a sampler set I purchased last year. It’s one of my favorites to look at. The density is so much higher than regular teeth. Glad y’all found a good spot! Looking forward to venturing back out to our spot Sunday. Enjoy your trip and i promise to toss all the good stuff back before I leave for the day. 😊😁😉 Jp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 26 minutes ago, Balance said: I got one too! 😊 Deciduous teeth are so pretty. Mine came as a gift from Harry in a sampler set I purchased last year. It’s one of my favorites to look at. The density is so much higher than regular teeth. Nice tooth, Jp.. I am into my research... 1) Are these Equus Deciduous teeth ? I think our answer is yes... 2) For horses, exactly when do these Deciduous teeth erupt ? Fortunately for us, University of Utah has this chart of ALL equus deciduous teeth. Since this is a premolar , the answer to the 2nd question is "2 weeks" 3) Do foals have upper and lower premolars? Are they different ? 4) What is the exact position of my tooth and your tooth? 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Jack, your horse tooth is a deciduous premolar. The bison tooth is an m3. Since all deciduous cheek teeth in these two species are premolars, the bison tooth cannot be a deciduous tooth. 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 1 minute ago, Harry Pristis said: Jack, your horse tooth is a deciduous premolar. The bison tooth is an m3. Since all deciduous cheek teeth in these two species are premolars, the bison tooth cannot be a deciduous tooth. Thanks Harry. I was unsure why, but I knew I did not want to add the word "Deciduous" to the Bison tooth.. Then it is an Adult tooth, recently erupted, but basely a trace of use. It seems that it is known by someone, when that event (approximately) happens in Bison today, so it is theoretically possible to date the age this Bison dies and leaves this tooth? Maybe someone also knows the average time between the eruption of a tooth and the start of root formation.. I am a curious person. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 I’ve actually been here already. 😂 not that I retained all of it but here’s a post with you and Harry discussing this about 5 years ago. It’s bookmarked because I don’t understand everything Harry says. Each time I read it I’ve got more puzzle pieces and a little more makes sense. Jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) As for do they have upper and lower deciduous teeth? I believe so. At least the incisors and premolars. 6 incisors on each jaw so that’s 12. 3 premolars on each side top and bottom. So that’s 12 for a total of 24 deciduous teeth. The wolf teeth we typically remove in the second year as the interfere with the riding bridle/bit placement in the mouth. I don’t think wolf teeth are considered “pre”. Also, in general horse world deciduous teeth are called , “caps”. So they loose their caps between 2-3 years or so. This is also the age the horses are started under saddle. Terrible timing in my opinion as the entire first year of training is done with a mouth full of teeth switching out. Location… I don’t know, Jack because I can’t find upper maxilla photographs of deciduous teeth. This is my reference image for deciduous Equus teeth. I believe mine is a dp2 because of the tapering at one side and it being a little longer and less of a balance rectangle. @Harry Pristis do you have any wisdom on the upper and lower premolar shapes? Jp edit: google says 4 years old for that bison m3. Edited April 3 by Balance Added image Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Here's why the deciduous cheek teeth may be called "caps" in horse-speak: Here are some deciduous uppers from an equus: 4 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 I found this Research paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320083649_ANIMAL_REMAINS_FROM_MEDIEVAL_AND_MODERN_VILA_FRANCA_DE_XIRA_PORTUGAL_EXCAVATIONS_AT_THE_NEO-REALISM_MUSEUM_Revista_CIRA_Arqueologia_N_5 and this ( I believe) mandible: the Research paper says dp2-dp4 which the caption under the picture is dP2-dP4.. At least it makes it possible to differentiate between dp2, dp3, and dp4. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 I emailed an equine dentist. Well sort of. 😊 His wife is my small animal veterinarian so I asked her if he’d be open to talking. He and I know who each other are via a mutual equine sports medicine vet (the one I’m building the Equus project for). He’s a very good dentist and he’s extremely well educated compared to most equine dental specialists so I imagine he’ll be excited to participate and contribute. Jp My thoughts went to another interesting place today. Horses are aged by their incisors, not their premolars like the deer dental sequence I studied. The third upper incisor actually is the landmark for older ages as they develop Galvain’s groove at 10-11 years old. The length of that groove is then used to determine older ages. So that’s probably why no one in online picture world cares about what we are currently wondering. All the educational importance is on the incisors. “Nothing to do with the info”, but know it. seems like this is a hurdle for us since the practical applications will tend to have the most online info. On that same note I think the “wolf teeth on horses might be an extant example of the “lost” premolar 1! Is that correct, @Harry Pristis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 Picked up a couple of photos/Pictures... Here is an upper jaw Equus deciduous molar; found in Tampa Bay, Florida Here is an old drawing of the Equus 3 lower premolars (dp2, dp3, dp4) My recent find is #1 in the above picture (I "think" dp4) Definitely waiting for @Balance and a response from his colleague Horse Dentist. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 19 hours ago, Balance said: I think the “wolf teeth on horses might be an extant example of the “lost” premolar 1! Is that correct, @Harry Pristis I think that in modern Equus the first premolar ("wolf tooth") is an atavism. Aren't Equus canines considered to be "wolf teeth"? As for incisors, I find this measure useful: 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I’m not sure , Harry, but I will ask the equine dentist if they are considered extra canines or a class to themselves. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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