Ramo Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I was starting to organize all my stuff and came across this tiny jaw in a bag of Codell Sandstone material (Cretaceous). I probably picked it up thinking it was an encodus tooth, but today I noticed it is a jaw with little hollow tooth sockets in it. Any idea what this might be from? For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 Phoo! That is a small jaw. Fish perhaps? Seems a little long and the teeth holes are spaces fairly far apart to me tetrapod to me. -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 Bowkill - I think Auspex may be your new best friend. Sure looks "bird" to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted July 8, 2010 Author Share Posted July 8, 2010 I was hoping bird as well, but I sent Mike Everhart these photos, and he thinks it may be from an aspidorhychid fish jaw. I looked up that fish, and saw they are gar-like and I've never found any gar-like scale, so I'm still hoping for bird. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 I was hoping bird as well, but I sent Mike Everhart these photos, and he thinks it may be from an aspidorhychid fish jaw. I looked up that fish, and saw they are gar-like and I've never found any gar-like scale, so I'm still hoping for bird. Ramo You might send pix to Larry Martin at KU. He's done a lot with the chalk birds. I know nothing about those fish, so Mike might be right. He knows a heck of a lot more about the fauna of the chalk than me. (Still think it looks like a bird, though!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen_turkey Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 (edited) Phoo! That is a small jaw. Fish perhaps? Seems a little long and the teeth holes are spaces fairly far apart to me tetrapod to me. It looks smmiler to some fish jaws that I found in the south easturn part of Iowa, But they are from a different age. And also look at the ends of the bone and if it is al flaky and stuff it is likly a bird. -Frozen Edited July 8, 2010 by frozen_turkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossildan Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 If its bird then the bone would be hollow, Id have to agree with fish, the striations on the bone remind me of the rostrum of a gar fish but the holes do seem strange, never seen anything like that, on a rostrum the holes usually run the other way. i will take some pics of some different fish rostrums and post them for you tomorrow. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 (edited) I'm just throwing this out there for you to compare.... but I think it also resembles a ratfish (Ischyodus) dorsal fin spine segment. But that would mean the "tooth sockets" are not natural. See my attached image of 2 Ischyodus spine segments. The bone texture looks similar and in your 2nd picture it almost looks like worn serrations along the edges of your specimen, but the picture isn't clear enough for me to say. But you could easily tell by examination and running your finger over the edges. -steve Edited July 8, 2010 by toothpuller ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 I'v sent photos to Mike Everhart and he is thinking Aspidorhythnchid fish. (gar type fish) So you guys are probably going to burst my bubble with him. I have never found a gar-type scale though. I was hoping for a bird ID. I also sent photos to KU and they need to see the bone in person. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Danny, Yeah, fish jaws don't have tooth sockets as a rule. I don't think it's a fish jaw anyway because of the spacing relative to the jaw size but I don't know what else it could be either. If its bird then the bone would be hollow, Id have to agree with fish, the striations on the bone remind me of the rostrum of a gar fish but the holes do seem strange, never seen anything like that, on a rostrum the holes usually run the other way. i will take some pics of some different fish rostrums and post them for you tomorrow. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 (edited) Bowkill, Siteseer seems to have a good point about the spacing… It just doesn’t look right to me either, but I’m far from an expert. But that leads me back to ratfish dorsal fin spine. Did you take a close look? Here are some more images if my first was not clear enough. Are these features (see image) definitely not the remnant bumps of serrations/tubercules like those of a Chimaeroid dorsal fin spine? They look like little bumps to me, similar to the ones in my first image, but I can't tell for sure from your picture. They could be nothing at all, just a digital artifact. Please overrule me if I’m just seeing things since you have the best view The new image is from an Eocene Chimaeroid species from the Antarctic, but Cretaceous specimens are basically the same. My specimens are 2 late Cretaceous Ischyodus dorsal fin spine segments on top of a pile of sharks teeth among other things. I have noticed that the tubercules on these are often worn down to just bumps more than idealized sharp jagged serrations like in the pictured Eocene specimen. If it does feel like bumps or tubercules on the edge of your specimen, then I would say the holes may be not natural and just a red herring here. But I can’t tell anything definitively from your pictures. Rule me out so I don’t have to waste any more time if that’s the case please. I just think that there is a striking resemblance minus those tooth sockets of course... -steve Edited July 9, 2010 by toothpuller ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossildan Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Danny, Yeah, fish jaws don't have tooth sockets as a rule. I don't think it's a fish jaw anyway because of the spacing relative to the jaw size but I don't know what else it could be either. Hi Siteseer, ive attached a pic of fish and fish jaw with sockets, interestingly the broken tooth appears very simular to the broken teeth/sockets on the specimen in question. looks like the teeth may have snapped off the specimen. I still think its some type of gar rostrum although very unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I think Steve(toothpuller) is on the right track. The "sockets" may not be much more than 'pin-hole' sized spots with different mineralization or leaching. Some of those can be seen on his reference photo. Here is a brighter version of Ramo's photo: The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossildan Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 We can probably rule out bird, So its between a dorsal spine and rostra, I think both could be possible. OK heres the fish rostra ( noses ) The first three are Cylindracanthus rectus, The next four Aglyptorynchus venablesi, And the last one is Hemirhabdorynchus elliotti. All the species have two rows of very small rasping teeth. could it be possible that the specimen in question is a variation with proper teeth Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossildan Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 I can definately see what you guys mean it is very simular, its just those holes would a dorsal spine perhaps have teeth/barbs that would look like this if broken ? , that might then explain it. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 Here is another photo. I guess I'm going to have to go with the fish ID. Besides the two tooth sockets, there is a third tooth that is just a mineralized tooth core that is hard to see. It is an equal distance as the other two. Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Bowkill, Siteseer seems to have a good point about the spacing… It just doesn't look right to me either, but I'm far from an expert. But that leads me back to ratfish dorsal fin spine. Did you take a close look? Here are some more images if my first was not clear enough. Are these features (see image) definitely not the remnant bumps of serrations/tubercules like those of a Chimaeroid dorsal fin spine? They look like little bumps to me, similar to the ones in my first image, but I can't tell for sure from your picture. They could be nothing at all, just a digital artifact. Please overrule me if I'm just seeing things since you have the best view The new image is from an Eocene Chimaeroid species from the Antarctic, but Cretaceous specimens are basically the same. My specimens are 2 late Cretaceous Ischyodus dorsal fin spine segments on top of a pile of sharks teeth among other things. I have noticed that the tubercules on these are often worn down to just bumps more than idealized sharp jagged serrations like in the pictured Eocene specimen. If it does feel like bumps or tubercules on the edge of your specimen, then I would say the holes may be not natural and just a red herring here. But I can't tell anything definitively from your pictures. Rule me out so I don't have to waste any more time if that's the case please. I just think that there is a striking resemblance minus those tooth sockets of course... -steve Something I am a little confused about. Are those actually teeth on the spine in the illustration? Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 (edited) Ramo, I see it now. It looks like a third tooth socket or partial tooth protruding and that would, of course, rule out my guess from way out in left field Dang, I thought I might have nailed this one like Lebron pounding the stake through the heart of all of Cleveland! Clearer pictures would have helped from the start, but I have had the same problems in the past of photographing small indeterminate fossils. Sorry for the tangent. -steve Here is another photo. I guess I'm going to have to go with the fish ID. Besides the two tooth sockets, there is a third tooth that is just a mineralized tooth core that is hard to see. It is an equal distance as the other two. Ramo Edited July 9, 2010 by toothpuller ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Roz, Along with sawfish "rostral teeth" and stingray spines, its a modified dermal denticle used in defense by chimaeras. They look similar and are similarly composed to teeth because they both developed from the same primitive structure. -steve Something I am a little confused about. Are those actually teeth on the spine in the illustration? ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Roz, Along with sawfish "rostral teeth" and stingray spines, its a modified dermal denticle used in defense by chimaeras. They look similar and are similarly composed to teeth because they both developed from the same primitive structure. -steve Ok, that clears it up then and thanks, Steve.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Y'all seem to have gotten 'round to the idea that it isn't bird (Icthyornis had teeth set in grooves, and Hesperornis teeth were much closer together), but we can still be friends "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossildan Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Y'all seem to have gotten 'round to the idea that it isn't bird (Icthyornis had teeth set in grooves, and Hesperornis teeth were much closer together), but we can still be friends Hi Auspex, Are you just saying that because we ruled out bird Or do you actually think there is a possibility of it being bird ? Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 11, 2010 Share Posted July 11, 2010 Hi Auspex, Are you just saying that because we ruled out bird Or do you actually think there is a possibility of it being bird ? Danny Safe to rule out bird "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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