The Ammonitico Rosso facies of Western Greece

[Dimitris]

The Ionian zone is a vast area in Greece, situated in the Western and Northwestern part of the country.

Its easternmost border can be observed in Pindos mountain range, the “spinal cord” of Greece and continuation of the Alps, while its westernmost part are the islands of Corfu, Kefalonia, Lefkada and Zante.

 

The same sediments exist in Italy, hence the name Ammonitico Rosso, which literally means ammonitic red. The term Ammonitico Rosso is very vague, technically the whole Jurassic area, but the Greek one is mostly Liasic, Pliensbachian and Toarcian most specific.

 

One of the best documentations was made by C. Renz but further exploration of the area was conducted due to crude oil deposits.

A key element of Ammonitico Rosso facies is the absence of the ammonites’ shells due to the aragonite disolution that took place after the original deposition, making their preparation quite tricky.

 

I would be there every day, but the 650km each direction does not help a lot. My first visit took place in August 2023 and we visited again the area this May.

A general aspect of the sedimentation looks like that. This layer is quite poor fossil-wise, but you get the idea.

 

We finally found the fossil bearing spot, following the documentation of Carl Renz.

 

Here I need to make a parenthesis. The Ionian Zone includes the red facies of A.R. and another formation which is more clayish, the fossils are yellowish and rarely, shell is preserved or even there is pyritic replacement.

So, we moved to a place that has these clayish deposits and it was eventful, at least.

 

A tiny but greatly preserved Callyphyloceras nilsoni, who has a small part of shell attached, around 10:00-11:00 o'clock.

(more pictures in the end)

 

A unidentified ammonite from the same area. Visible partial pyritization that eventually turned into rust, thanks to the weather elements.

 

A Phylloceras cf. heterophyllum

Diameter is 6-7cm

 

 

Just look at the innermost whorl

 

 

On this speciement, I would like your opinion, although I lean towards Dactylioceras sp.

The outer whorls were eroded but thankfully, the center was covered in sediment.

5cm diameter

 

 

Possibly Mercaticeratidae

8cm diameter, one of my favorite finds.

 

A Callyphyloceras sp

 

 

And this one I finished a little before.

6cm

It seems to be Hildoceratidae but I would like your opinion.

 

 

Hope you liked the finds. I certainly enjoyed the whole process and will definately visit this place again, sooner or later.

 

 

[Ludwigia]

Thanks for sharing this. Quite informative. The one where you're thinking Dactylioceras might also be a Catacoeloceras. Can you say which zone it's from? I agree with the Hildoceras. And as far as I know, there is no such family as Mercaticeratidae, but the genus Mercaticeras belongs to the Hildoceratidae.

[Jared C]

These are spectacular ammonites! I had no idea Greece had fossils of this caliber. Excellent work!

[Ludwigia]

1 hour ago, Jared C said:

These are spectacular ammonites! I had no idea Greece had fossils of this caliber. Excellent work!

 

If you like these, then you should check out the Triassic ones from Epidaurus.

[Dimitris]

21 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

Thanks for sharing this. Quite informative. The one where you're thinking Dactylioceras might also be a Catacoeloceras. Can you say which zone it's from? I agree with the Hildoceras. And as far as I know, there is no such family as Mercaticeratidae, but the genus Mercaticeras belongs to the Hildoceratidae.

Hello Roger and thank you very much for your input, much appreciated.

 

So, I should have said Dactylioceratidae more corectly. Catacoeloceras has been found - the following species: C. crassum, C. dumortieri.

I am not in the position to say the zone, since I lack the experience in the lower Jurassic. Additionally, most of the speciements were found detached from their original position, as a result of the spring rains in the area.

The Callyphyloceras cf. nilsoni though, has been extracted directly from the layer, and according to a friend, it is Bifrons zone.

The cf. Catacoeloceras sp has been found detached and right below from the C. nilsoni, so it is highly possible they were in the same zone.

 

You are correct about Mercaticeratidae, my mistake. I wanted to say it looks like a Mercaticeras sp, however I see the ribs are lacking the scythe like shape, which is characteristic for the Hildoceratidae family. 

 

Roger, I want to thank you one more time for your constant help and constructive advice.

Eventually, I listened to it and last year bought a Vaniman with iron powder, and this year I have practiced a lot.

Air abrasion and practice was what I was lacking most.

 

 

8 hours ago, Jared C said:

These are spectacular ammonites! I had no idea Greece had fossils of this caliber. Excellent work!

 

Thank you.

Greece has some really nice fossils both in terms of quality and diversity.

As far as we are talking about ammonites, the Greek fauna is starting from the Olenkian of L. Triassic and is extending until the Lower/Middle Jurassic.

There is an unexplainable gap of cephalopods from the Later Jurrasic and the whole Cretaceous period, with single speciements found in extremely rare occasions and some smashed Maastrichtian ones, that don't look like something recognizable.

 

7 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

 

If you like these, then you should check out the Triassic ones from Epidaurus.

 

There are some small details about Epidauros that are not widely known, at least outside Greece.

The main formation and the basis reference, is the Askleipionkalke (As per Renz) and their age ranges from Anisian until early Carnian. Their typical texture is Manganese layer on redish matrix. This post will give you the idea.

 

The other locality, near the theater, has a Carnian only fauna and is extensively reported by Renz (Die mesozoischen Faunen Griechenlands)

There is no publication here about the Carnian fauna, but I promise that I will make one. A sample from my collection, a Joannites klipsteni or J. cymbiformis or a transitional species between them, as Renz says it happens a lot there.

 

 

The last variation, is the partially silicified phase. 

You can see some ammonites on this link. Unfortunately, Renz did not find the place, neither has been studied, since it is looted to pebbles. It was wrongly called Carnian for a lot of time, until Andreas enlighted us, thank you very much for that.

 

There is a small outcrop, more than 200km north of Epidaurus, that is indentical to the Askleipionkalke and Renz said that he could not tell the difference between Epidaurus and that place. It is estimated to be untouched since then and I will make an autopsy this August.

 

We are a little bit off topic, but when I read Epidaurus, I feel a heartbeat - it is my soft spot.

 

 

[Ludwigia]

46 minutes ago, Dimitris said:

The cf. Catacoeloceras sp has been found detached and right below from the C. nilsoni, so it is highly possible they were in the same zone.

 

Then that would fit, since Catacoeloceras occurs in the bifrons zone.

[Everhardus]

Nice to see some Ammonitico Rosso finds from Greece. I’ve found similar ammonites from Italy some years ago. From what i understand Toarcian.  I have my doubts about your Hildoceras, check out Hildaites.  Greetz Marcel

[Dimitris]

On 6/11/2024 at 12:45 AM, Everhardus said:

Nice to see some Ammonitico Rosso finds from Greece. I’ve found similar ammonites from Italy some years ago. From what i understand Toarcian.  I have my doubts about your Hildoceras, check out Hildaites.  Greetz Marcel

Thanks! The Italian must be a little better preserved than the Greek ones. I wasn't sure about the genus, so I left it unspecified Hildoceratidae.  Hildaites sp looks really plausible 

[fifbrindacier]

You made a nice work with them Dimitris.

[Everhardus]

11 hours ago, Dimitris said:

Thanks! The Italian must be a little better preserved than the Greek ones. I wasn't sure about the genus, so I left it unspecified Hildoceratidae.  Hildaites sp looks really plausible 

The ones i found were very similar in preservation and colours !