Belemnite ID

[Dave J]

@TqB These are the Belemnites I wanted to ID. The smaller ones I found on Lyme Regis Beach as a child, maybe 20 years ago. The larger ones I found on the same beach more recently? I don't seem to be able to find the small ones there anymore? I numbered the larger ones because I'm expecting you to tell me there's more than one species amongst them. Hope the pictures are ok.

[TqB]

Hi Dave,

 

Your 20 year old ones in the first two photos can't have come from the Lyme Regis area. They're Neohibolites minimus from the Gault, most often collected at Folkestone. (I know there's Gault at Lyme and Charmouth but it doesn't have any belemnites recorded as far as I know.) The colour and short posterior furrow are characteristic.

 

The others are mostly partial Passaloteuthis from the Pliensbachian (Stonebarrow Marl and Seatown Marl). 

No. 3 and possibly no. 7 look like the small Nannobelus found below in the Sinemurian (that's Black Ven Mudstone and Blue Lias) where it's the only common belemnite.

You might be interested in my belemnite thread which includes quite a few different ones from around there.
https://www.thefossilforum.com/topic/104778-belemnites-assorted-favourites-from-my-collection/

Edited June 17 by TqB

[Dave J]

17 minutes ago, TqB said:

Your 20 year old ones in the first two photos can't have come from the Lyme Regis area.

That's so strange? To my knowledge I've never been to Folkstone? But it does explain why I can no longer find them at Lyme 🤔. Must be some distorted childhood memory. In any case, thank you very much once again for your help 😊.

[Dave J]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:15 PM, TqB said:

Hi Dave,

 

Your 20 year old ones in the first two photos can't have come from the Lyme Regis area. They're Neohibolites minimus from the Gault, most often collected at Folkestone. (I know there's Gault at Lyme and Charmouth but it doesn't have any belemnites recorded as far as I know.) The colour and short posterior furrow are characteristic.

 

The others are mostly partial Passaloteuthis from the Pliensbachian (Stonebarrow Marl and Seatown Marl). 

No. 3 and possibly no. 7 look like the small Nannobelus found below in the Sinemurian (that's Black Ven Mudstone and Blue Lias) where it's the only common belemnite.

You might be interested in my belemnite thread which includes quite a few different ones from around there.
https://www.thefossilforum.com/topic/104778-belemnites-assorted-favourites-from-my-collection/

@TqB So using the info you gave, I tried to group some of my other Belemnites. Did I get this correct?

Are these 5 Nannobelus sp? Are they all Jurassic?

and these 7 are Passaloteuthis sp?

Edited June 19 by Dave J

[TqB]

Pretty close I think.  1,2,3 & 4 in the first photo look like Nannobelus though you'd need the bed to confirm as some juvenile Passaloteuthis are similar. The preservation fits for there though.

 

All the others are probably Passaloteuthis but it's often impossible to be sure; no. 7 for example could easily just be the posterior end of the very elongated Bairstowius.

 

You may come across Pseudohastites as a modern ID for some of the Passaloteuthis types which narrow at the front (alveolus) end.  I'm not convinced by the need to separate them as the variation is continuous with none-narrowing ones. (Also, Pseudohastites was used last century (Lang, 1928) for what is now now called Bairstowius.) The original type specimen of Pseudohastites Naef 1922  was Belemnites scabrosus Phillips 1866, based only on a single specimen whose shape is exaggerated in Phillips' plate which was why Naef created the genus.

This is typical systematics.  

[Dave J]

2 minutes ago, TqB said:

Pretty close I think.  1,2,3 & 4 in the first photo look like Nannobelus though you'd need the bed to confirm as some juvenile Passaloteuthis are similar. The preservation fits for there though.

 

All the others are probably Passaloteuthis but it's often impossible to be sure; no. 7 for example could easily just be the posterior end of the very elongated Bairstowius.

 

You may come across Pseudohastites as a modern ID for some of the Passaloteuthis types which narrow at the front (alveolus) end.  I'm not convinced by the need to separate them as the variation is continuous with none-narrowing ones. (Also, Pseudohastites was used last century (Lang, 1928) for what is now now called Bairstowius.) The original type specimen of Pseudohastites Naef 1922  was Belemnites scabrosus Phillips 1866, based only on a single specimen whose shape is exaggerated in Phillips' plate which was why Naef created the genus.

This is typical systematics.  

@TqBThank you for your expertise. Now that I'm trying to learn properly and taking it more seriously, in future I'm going to try to make note of the bed I find things in. (Though first Ill need to learn where beds are and how to differentiate them.) I'll label up my old finds as best I can for now. You showed a belemnite in my other post when you identified the belemnite rostrum. It had a bulbous end on it, is that the soft tissue of the belemnite preserved?

[TqB]

58 minutes ago, Dave J said:

@TqBThank you for your expertise. Now that I'm trying to learn properly and taking it more seriously, in future I'm going to try to make note of the bed I find things in. (Though first Ill need to learn where beds are and how to differentiate them.) I'll label up my old finds as best I can for now. You showed a belemnite in my other post when you identified the belemnite rostrum. It had a bulbous end on it, is that the soft tissue of the belemnite preserved?

Not soft tissue (which is extremely rare and I've never found any), it's the complete phragmocone extending beyond the rostrum. (The pro-ostracum extended beyond that but is extremely fragile and rare; again, I've never found one! It's usually shown in diagrams of the whole animal though.)

Of course, you're not allowed to collect from bedrock on the Dorset coast nowadays but knowing the exact location can narrow the possibilities down if it's fairly fresh material that's not washed along far from its source. The preservation (colour and adherent matrix) can help a lot too.