Glyptotherium or Holmesina osteoderm?

[old bones]

Here is another South Carolina beach find that I need an ID on. It appears to be a peripheral osteoderm from either Glyptotherium sp., or Holmesina septentrionalis.

I have not found enough of these to be sure of an ID on this position or shape. @Harry Pristis @Fin Lover @Shellseeker
All help is appreciated.

 

 

Edited June 22 by old bones
tagged people

[Harry Pristis]

My guess is pampathere -- Holmesina sp.  Further, I think it's not a marginal from the buckler, but may be a marginal from the cephalic armor or from a more obscure body position. 

Just a guess because there are so many different shapes.  I've identified this one as a buckler marginal:

 

 

 

And this one (Right).

 

[old bones]

1 minute ago, Harry Pristis said:

My guess is pampathere -- Holmesina sp.  Further, I think it's not a marginal from the buckler, but may be a marginal from the cephalic armor or from a more obscure body position.  Just a guess because there are so many different shapes.  I've identified this one as a buckler marginal:

 

Thank you, @Harry Pristis. Trust me to find something obscure! I shall add it to my Holmesina group in this Pleistocene collection. 
Glyptotherium remains on my bucket list.

[Meganeura]

I'm going to disagree with Harry here. I've found a few similar ones that I've had ID'd by Rachel Narducci from FLMNH as Glypotherium - the larger ones here. They're not identical, but are quite similar. The location likely to be from the head.

[old bones]

38 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

I'm going to disagree with Harry here. I've found a few similar ones that I've had ID'd by Rachel Narducci from FLMNH as Glypotherium - the larger ones here. They're not identical, but are quite similar. The location likely to be from the head.

 

Well, heck. Harry did say it was a guess... Thanks for chiming in. I will go ahead and send my image to Rachael, and see what she has to say. Thanks again, @Meganeura.

I am grateful for all responses.

[Shellseeker]

Julianna, 

Like Daniel,  I have found Osteoderms almost exactly like yours and have identified them as Glypotherium. This is only based on lacking the typical "ridge" famous on Armadillo and lacking any other criteria for not choosing Glypotherium .   My identification is only a Guess also.

I would be interested in the Criteria Rachel uses... Certainly she has available complete coats of both fauna to use for identifications such as these..

Jack

[old bones]

5 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Julianna, 

Like Daniel,  I have found Osteoderms almost exactly like yours and have identified them as Glypotherium. This is only based on lacking the typical "ridge" famous on Armadillo and lacking any other criteria for not choosing Glypotherium .   My identification is only a Guess also.

I would be interested in the Criteria Rachel uses... Certainly she has available complete coats of both fauna to use for identifications such as these..

Jack

@Shellseeker Thanks, Jack.  I will post her reply when I receive it. I will ask her specifically about her criteria for the ID difference. 

[Harry Pristis]

Here are a couple of osteoderms that I believe are marginals -- one from a glyptothere, the other from a pampathere.  

I can recommend The Armor of FOSSIL GIANT ARMADILLOS by A. Gordon Edmund (1985); Texas Memorial Museum, University of Texas at Austin.  Armadillos were a special interest for "Gord."  He spent time here in Florida, even borrowed some of my armadillo fossils to make casts for his Royal Ontario Museum collection in Toronto.

 

 

[Meganeura]

2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Here are a couple of osteoderms that I believe are marginals -- one from a glyptothere, the other from a pampathere.  

I can recommend The Armor of FOSSIL GIANT ARMADILLOS by A. Gordon Edmund (1985); Texas Memorial Museum, University of Texas at Austin.  Armadillos were a special interest for "Gord."  He spent time here in Florida, even borrowed some of my armadillo fossils to make casts for his Royal Ontario Museum collection in Toronto.

 

Huh, I’ve actually seen that exhibit! Neat! 
 

It’s good to see various kinds from each type as well. I have similar marginals from both Holmesina and Glyptotherium - I’ll have to take pictures tomorrow to add here.

[Meganeura]

Okay I’ve taken pictures of my different “strange” Osteoderms from both Holmesina and Glyptotherium.

These ones were ID’d as Holmesina:

 

And we have Glyptotherium “spike” osteoderms, including a weird marginal one that wraps around - that’s the top right one, it’s not broken:

These I was told were likely from the head of the Glyptotherium:

 

And then these - also Glyptotherium, likely marginal from other spots - and the ones I think are most similar to @old bones’s find:

 

[Harry Pristis]

22 hours ago, Meganeura said:

These I was told were likely . . . 

Who told you?

[Meganeura]

6 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Who told you?

The same person I mentioned before... Rachel Narducci. The FLMNH employee that took over for Richard Hulbert. There's really no need for the attitude.

Edited June 24 by Meganeura

[Harry Pristis]

No attitude, just looking for full information.

These are from Gillette & Ray monograph:

glyptodonts Gillette.pdf

[Meganeura]

3 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

No attitude, just looking for full information.

These are from Gillette & Ray monograph:

glyptodonts Gillette.pdf 9.56 MB · 0 downloads

Would C and D not be very similar to my last set of pictures as well as Julianna? 

[Harry Pristis]

"C" is from the tail.  "D" is from near the buckler margin.  What is your point?

[Meganeura]

17 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

"C" is from the tail.  "D" is from near the buckler margin.  What is your point?

That they fit both mine and Julianna's finds, and thus, are likely to be Glyptotherium.

[Harry Pristis]

13 hours ago, Meganeura said:

That they fit both mine and Julianna's finds, and thus, are likely to be Glyptotherium.

Maybe.  I'm focused on old bones' well-photographed find.

[Fin Lover]

I'm sorry, but how is it hijacking the thread if he is posting things he believes match Julianna's items, that have been IDed by a professional?  To me, it seemed like Daniel was trying to be helpful.  

Edited June 25 by Fin Lover

[Randyw]

Actually @Meganeura picture was very helpful to me at least. I have a carbon copy of one of his pieces I can now label as identified!

[Meganeura]

26 minutes ago, Fin Lover said:

I'm sorry, but how is it hijacking the thread if he is posting things he believes match Julianna's items, that have been IDed by a professional?  To me, it seemed like Daniel was trying to be helpful.  

That’s exactly what I’m doing. My finds, which have been ID’d - are similar to Julianna’s, who was requesting an ID. I was posting comparison pictures. If anything, I’m not sure what the relevance of posting about donations or casts of an exhibit in Toronto have to do with Julianna’s find, so… sorry, who was hijacking the thread again? 
 

@Randyw Glad I could help!

@old bones Hopefully my pictures are of help to you, as they have been ID’d. If this has come off as hijacking, I sincerely apologize, as my intention was only to help you with your find!

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

No attitude, just looking for full information.

These are from Gillette & Ray monograph:

Harry, 

Your knowledge on the Florida fossil fauna is unsurpassed ... Most of the time you post,  I learn something new.  But I am getting long in the tooth, and I think about the fact that TFF will need many more people to do Fossil IDs when we are not here to help. 

I have a tendency which grows stronger to not only ID a fossil, but to  add knowledge so that the person requesting the ID,  will get more than just a single ID.. So I ask myself:  What are the differentiators between these two fauna Osteoderms?  How do I tell one from another?

I do not think my differentiators are complete or sufficient.  

1) Armadillo Osteoderms frequently have a ridge,  which I have not seen on Glyptodont.

2) Glyptodont Osteoderms are almost always thicker that those of Armadillo.

3) Armadillo has a some what unique "edge"  that is markedly different from Glyptodont.  

4)...

I do this because I want to add to the knowledge or many TFF members,  which I think is a good thing. 

 

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

  If meganeura's fossils have been correctly identified, good for him.  He asserts that a third-party expert has made that identification - okay.  I am not interested in confirming or denying that identification. 

  The problem arises when meganeura presses us to see what he thinks he sees:  He insists that old bones' find resembles his finds.  Meganeura relies on several group images of his finds for his argument.  I don't see it.

  I've already made an argument that old bones' find is NOT glyptothere, and I see no reason to change my guess at this juncture.  It seems I have different standards for identification. 

[Harry Pristis]

10 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

1) Armadillo Osteoderms frequently have a ridge,  which I have not seen on Glyptodont.

2) Glyptodont Osteoderms are almost always thicker that those of Armadillo.

3) Armadillo has a some what unique "edge"  that is markedly different from Glyptodont.

 

 

I wish it were that simple in every case, Jack.  Some osteoderms of each taxon have smooth surfaces -- no ridge or rosette.  Probably most finds will have diagnostic contours, but not all of 'em.  As for thickness, remarkably the thickness of Holmesina osteoderms varied with the season - thicker in winter - according to one theory.  I don't know if such a feature evolved in glyptotheres, but it's interesting to consider.

 

[Fin Lover]

4 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

It seems I have different standards for identification

It is not a requirement that we all agree all of the time.  In fact, a difference of opinion can lead to some good conversations on here and a lot of information shared.  It should be a requirement, however, that differences of opinion remain respectful.

 

And now Julianna's thread has gone off the rails, so I will bow out of the conversation.    Sorry, @old bones!  

[Brandy Cole]

7 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Meganeura relies on his claim of third-party expertise and several group images of his finds for his argument.

Offering up examples with a confirmed ID from an expert in the field so that a poster can use them for his or her own in-hand comparison is a well-accepted practice on this forum.  

 

Disagreements as to potential ID's are also common, but as @Fin Lover stated, it is a requirement that they remain respectful.