New Members PAfossilguy Posted June 25 New Members Share Posted June 25 Hello! I'm excited to join this forum, I've already learned a ton and I'd like to give a brief introduction before I get to the good part. I've recently gotten into recovering old items, I've always been a science nerd. I grew up on a farm in NEPA and moved to Philadelphia area for about a decade where I finished my degree in I.T. but worked as a animal specialist through college, originally being a saltwater reef tank specialist but branched into reptiles, cat and dog training and eventually exotic animal care like monkeys, giraffes, kinkajous and a plethora of other awesome creatures. Recently I got hired by someone who met me through one of my tech clients, he inherited properties to which he had to handle estates for family, I met him working a sensitive job for my client and we built rapport. He tasked me with helping clean out the properties, catalog all the items of value, and list them online. Well the properties were loaded with things from late 1880's to current time. Absolutely mind blowing things, I feel like I'm cleaning out king tut's tomb! This got me interested it metal detecting, rockhounding and alast really into learning about fossil hunting and then preparation. Now for the fun part... I'm constantly trying to apply all my knowledge to every situation. I see it can be quite difficult actually extracting fossils without damaging them, it really is an art all of it's own, much like there's an art to "maintaining habitats or tanks to simulate the wild" I even was a to completely automate a garage for a client doing an indoor greenhouse by crossing my knowledge of botany and my knowledge of technology taking out much of the possible human error. So finally to my main question! Has any of the hardcore paleontologists in here ever attempted to use a 3D scanner to create a rendering and measurement of an unprepared fossil and then use that data to use a C02 laser cutter to remove all of the unwanted matrix? I'm fairly confident I could make that work and would like feed back. Essentially it would be reverse 3D printing if you're familiar how it works. It would give accuracy down to the millimeter and it would take off alot of time and human error, and eliminate all potential "vibration" damage. I'd love to explore this with professionals together! Thanks to all who read this I look forward to learning more here and picking the minds of fellow science nerds! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 1 hour ago, PAfossilguy said: ever attempted to use a 3D scanner to create a rendering and measurement of an unprepared fossil and then use that data to use a C02 laser cutter to remove all of the unwanted matrix? I'm fairly confident I could make that work and would like feed back. Essentially it would be reverse 3D printing if you're familiar how it works. It would give accuracy down to the millimeter and it would take off alot of time and human error, and eliminate all potential "vibration" damage. LOL!! This is something I would like to call an innovative idea! 3D scanner means X-ray CT, of course. Now imagine that machine! X-ray tube, detector, various goniometric circels, and a laser - with the specimen mounted on a platform. Btw, welcome to TFF from Austria! Franz Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 Welcome to the Forum. That is an innovative idea. Lots of potential there, I think. However, my worries would be the accuracy of the laser cutter used and the expense of the scanning. CAT Scanning and X-rays are generally fairly expensive. Unless you have the machinery yourself. And then, when something is completely encased in rock, the measurements would need to be amazingly precise. I have no doubt it might work, but the risk of ruining a fossil is pretty high. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 IPFOTM -- MAY - 2024 _________________________________________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted June 25 Author New Members Share Posted June 25 9 hours ago, Fossildude19 said: Welcome to the Forum. That is an innovative idea. Lots of potential there, I think. However, my worries would be the accuracy of the laser cutter used and the expense of the scanning. CAT Scanning and X-rays are generally fairly expensive. Unless you have the machinery yourself. And then, when something is completely encased in rock, the measurements would need to be amazingly precise. I have no doubt it might work, but the risk of ruining a fossil is pretty high. So actually you dont even necessarily need an xray or CT, they have 3D rendering tools you can buy now that are handheld, all you would need is the very surface of the fossil exposed for the 3D rendering to detect it, and you could tell the Laser to lower its output when it's near the fossil within the rock. I could actually get this going for under $6000. I get that is alot for an amateur hunter, but if a professional paleontologist had access to funding I am confident could get this up and running. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBlooded Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 Anyone here familiar with the monorail episode of the Simpsons? Sorry I’m having fun. I agree with the before mentioned need for incredible accuracy of both scanning and cutting. I’m made all the more skeptical when you respond saying you wouldn’t need to get a scan of the fossil beneath the surface of the matrix. Without knowing where the fossil is within a given block I’m not sure how the laser is supposed to, with precision, prep out your fossil. I guess it just seems like much more tech and money than what you need. Sounds cool but I’d be astonished to see it be implemented in a practical, economical, replicable way. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted June 26 Author New Members Share Posted June 26 3 hours ago, ScottBlooded said: Anyone here familiar with the monorail episode of the Simpsons? Sorry I’m having fun. I agree with the before mentioned need for incredible accuracy of both scanning and cutting. I’m made all the more skeptical when you respond saying you wouldn’t need to get a scan of the fossil beneath the surface of the matrix. Without knowing where the fossil is within a given block I’m not sure how the laser is supposed to, with precision, prep out your fossil. I guess it just seems like much more tech and money than what you need. Sounds cool but I’d be astonished to see it be implemented in a practical, economical, replicable way. If it was a bigger more durable fossil you can tweak the laser to only remove 1 mm at a time close to the fossil, maybe even fractions of a mm. Sure it would need to be monitored by a real live person. Even an A.I. program could be implemented to detect the difference between matrix and fossil something that's processing in milliseconds or nano seconds before it fires the laser. This isn't even what I would consider cutting edge tech (maybe the application on fossils would be) but we have the technology to implement this tomorrow for well under the cost many would assume. In a professional setting it would save on man power and time. Something that would take weeks or months could be done within hours. Eliminating 99.8% of human error. It would be near perfect if machine learning was activated. Besides maintenance on the mechanical parts it could be close to if not perfect, it would permit an acceleration of research. Not to mention having exact 3D generated copies, it would reduce the need for taking molds, all of those things take up room in storage somewhere, solid state hard drive arrays take up way less room and are corruption proof if maintained correctly. It would allow professional paleontologists to share findings faster in higher resolution, and 3D models can be fed directly into modern 3D printers. You could send insanely accurate models to the other side of the world, they can hit print and have the exact replica right in their hands. If I had access to the equipment I could tweak the software to cater to fossils and artifacts and it could be a game changer, and with it already being only thousands of dollars to obtain this isnt just possible commercially the invested enthusiasts could have access tomorrow and with some fine tuning offer it as a service to others who would like some help with processing. Add machine learning in there and make the database searchable and it could even be insanely accurate at detecting when something is an undiscovered specimen with scary accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 1 hour ago, PAfossilguy said: If it was a bigger more durable fossil you can tweak the laser to only remove 1 mm at a time close to the fossil, maybe even fractions of a mm. Sure it would need to be monitored by a real live person. Even an A.I. program could be implemented to detect the difference between matrix and fossil something that's processing in milliseconds or nano seconds before it fires the laser. Now I am going to understand the idea? Fire --> Matrix exposed --> Fire again etc. --> Fossil exposed --> Move to next spot --> Fire etc. Something like that? Franz Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted June 26 Author New Members Share Posted June 26 2 hours ago, FranzBernhard said: Now I am going to understand the idea? Fire --> Matrix exposed --> Fire again etc. --> Fossil exposed --> Move to next spot --> Fire etc. Something like that? Franz Bernhard With a good camera. Or even a secondary laser that's scanning instead of burning it would really be that simple. Not to mention as it gets exposed, you could periodically lacquer it and have the laser ignore both exposed fossil mineralization and lacquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted June 26 Author New Members Share Posted June 26 22 hours ago, Fossildude19 said: Welcome to the Forum. That is an innovative idea. Lots of potential there, I think. However, my worries would be the accuracy of the laser cutter used and the expense of the scanning. CAT Scanning and X-rays are generally fairly expensive. Unless you have the machinery yourself. And then, when something is completely encased in rock, the measurements would need to be amazingly precise. I have no doubt it might work, but the risk of ruining a fossil is pretty high. Definitely it would have to be accurate, super small micro fossils wouldnt be good candidates at first, but currently C02 laser etchers come with 0.03mm accuracy, this isn't considering the fine tuning I could do to fit this particular application with fossils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 6 minutes ago, PAfossilguy said: Or even a secondary laser that's scanning instead of burning it would really be that simple. Talking about bone fossils first, its about distinguishing "apatite" from clay minerals, quarz etc. You could hypothetically use an IR-response or a Raman signal, both excited by a laser, to distinguish these. Are you thinking in that line? Franz Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 You’re making a lot of assumptions about the uniformity of preservation, matrix stabilization, coloration, etc. this is something humans do very well with mechanical tools (manual, air powered, air erasers, engravers etc)… 3D imaging even with color imaging isn’t going to necessarily perfect at distinguishing matrix vs fossil, and CT while awesome cannot either. I feel I could more readily plow matrix away than what would be needed for 3D scanning a surface etc. plus during prep you have to periodically stabilize surfaces etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted July 2 Author New Members Share Posted July 2 On 6/26/2024 at 5:20 AM, FranzBernhard said: Talking about bone fossils first, its about distinguishing "apatite" from clay minerals, quarz etc. You could hypothetically use an IR-response or a Raman signal, both excited by a laser, to distinguish these. Are you thinking in that line? Franz Bernhard I couldnt have said it better. Precisely what I was getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members PAfossilguy Posted July 2 Author New Members Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, NickG said: You’re making a lot of assumptions about the uniformity of preservation, matrix stabilization, coloration, etc. this is something humans do very well with mechanical tools (manual, air powered, air erasers, engravers etc)… 3D imaging even with color imaging isn’t going to necessarily perfect at distinguishing matrix vs fossil, and CT while awesome cannot either. I feel I could more readily plow matrix away than what would be needed for 3D scanning a surface etc. plus during prep you have to periodically stabilize surfaces etc etc etc We could actually set up a second arm, to preserve the surfaces as they are uncovered. Basically using 3D printing tech instead of extruding polymers it could use lacquer to protect it as its uncovered. And you could program the IR laser to ignore protected surfaces. Dont get me wrong this would take some fine tuning, and wouldnt be perfect at first, but as it learns the accuracy will increase exponentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 7 hours ago, PAfossilguy said: We could actually set up a second arm, to preserve the surfaces as they are uncovered. Basically using 3D printing tech instead of extruding polymers it could use lacquer to protect it as its uncovered. And you could program the IR laser to ignore protected surfaces. Dont get me wrong this would take some fine tuning, and wouldnt be perfect at first, but as it learns the accuracy will increase exponentially. You wouldn't want to use lacquer! It does not preserve as well as butvar, and will yellow with age. While trying to do things better with technology is admirable, I wonder at the end result for human preparators. Another AI taking over a human's job? Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 IPFOTM -- MAY - 2024 _________________________________________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said: I wonder at the end result for human preparators. Another AI taking over a human's job? They could focus on really delicate and important fossils. Franz Bernhard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Allowing computers and lasers to prep fossils? Where's the fun in that? I personally really enjoy preparing fossils. I think I'd be more proud of a imperfect fossil I prepped then a perfectly prepared one that I just pushed a button on personally 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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