My first predator molar! Also, a tooth that I don't even know where to start with. E Kansas

[Jaybot]

Hello y'all!  Hope your having a great day.

   So, got to go out hunting recently, and found a few firsts which is always nice.  I spotted this predator (pre?)molar in the sand, and got very excited as it is my first mammal predator tooth.

Now, because it's my first predator molar, I know barely anything about id'ng these.  Any help would be very much appreciated! 

It has two roots, and some wear as well.  Unfortunately a small section of the enamel is broken off. 

So:

My first question is, where does this tooth belong?  Is it a premolar or molar, and why?

Also, is there a good paper/guide/system to determine between felid, canid, ursid, and bear-dog?

I know that @Shellseeker @Harry Pristis seem to know quite a bit about these.

Looking forward to seeing what y'all think this one is.  Thanks in advance!

 

Measurements are in metric- millimeters.

Both teeth found in 'glacial' material of E Kansas.

 

 

 

 

 

(tweezers is holding the tooth upright in this photo just in case you were wondering)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now for the second tooth:

I found this one roots-up, and my mind was blown when I saw the enamel/chewing surfaces.  I have never even seen a picture of a tooth that looks like this, although that doesn't mean much in my 1 year of experience.  I don't even know what group of animals to try searching in, so I'll have to lean on the expertise of our fellow members for this one. 

Here's what I do know about it:

-It's unerupted

-has HSB's (Hunter Schreger Bands)

-possibly Bunodont??

-Fully rooted

 

I'm eager to find out what this goes to.  I appreciate all the help for these id requests and all previous requests; thanks everyone!

Don't hesitate to correct me in any way, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about ID'ing mammal teeth.

 

Measurements also in metric- millimeters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks again, and have a great rest of your day!

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Jaybot said:

My first question is, where does this tooth belong?  Is it a premolar or molar, and why?

Also, is there a good paper/guide/system to determine between felid, canid, ursid, and bear-dog?

 

No time to research.  Just trying to get you started.  It "MIGHT" be a lower jaw carnassial M1 of a small canid..

Here is one of Harry's photos... (for a coyote)... 

 

Does YOUR find match the shape ??? Coyote crown length is about 20 mm compared to your 14 mm. So if it is similar you could have a canid about 2/3rds the size of a coyote..  pretty small predator.

Seems somewhat similar to your 2nd photo.. high mountain on left down to a flat plateau...

 

Night!

[jikohr]

I'm no expert when it come to carnivorous mammal teeth but, could the first one be Racoon?

[Brandy Cole]

@jikohr Unless I'm mistaken, raccoon molars look significantly smaller.

 

https://www.thefossilforum.com/gallery/image/52417-raccoon-molarjpg/

[Shellseeker]

Just a question of focus and size....

Grey Fox might be a possibility

 

5/8 ths inch -  15.88 mm , so need a predator with a tooth just a wee bit smaller

[Jaybot]

Morning!

Thank you Shellseeker for the informative posts.

I'm curious, what characteristics makes it possibly an M1?  Just trying to learn

 

[Shellseeker]

My experience tends to be with canids.. there is a nail, I have a hammer..

Here is a Dire Wolf skull...  All canids tend to have similar but smaller teeth.. coyote, dogs, etc

Look at the shapes for the teeth... You have molars, premolars, canines, incisors and they all look different in a single individual.  Each wolf has 4 of those large carnassials: 2 P4s in upper jaws and 2 M1s in lower jaws.. Your tooth (2nd photo) has a high mountain down to a plateau ==== M1. 

I used the above jaw to identify this tooth I found in the Peace River...

 

 

No magic here.. Just get yourself some comparison photos and do the analysis.

[Jaybot]

Thank you Shellseeker!  I'll have to remember that criteria for an m1.

I have some papers (granted they are from the 1940's) that list the extinct fauna of my local area.

Maybe it'll give me some ideas as to what kind of predator this could have gone to.  I'll report back if I find anything.

[Jaybot]

Well, as far as foxes go... it could be Vulpes velox, or the Swift Fox.  Image source:   https://www.utep.edu/leb/pleistnm/taxamamm/vulpes.htm

 

 

The middle jaw's m1 seems to be close to 14 mm if I measured correctly, and the top around 15 mm.

Now, there isn't great resources on what foxes used to be in my area.  For all I know, Vulpes velox may not be a possibility due to range.  They are however, alive today in W Kansas, so perhaps their range extended to the east side back then?

Bottom one is a Kit fox, which I don't think is a possibility due to range.

 

I can't find a picture of an isolated m1 for Vulpes velox.  One thing that's throwing me off is the shape of the roots on my specimen- the smaller root seems to curve, whereas the roots on Prehistoric Florida's grey fox molar are almost equal size and don't curve from what I can tell. 

I don't know; perhaps that doesn't matter.

[Jaybot]

Just a side thought, and probably completely wrong; what if it's an m2 (of probably not dire wolf, just talkin' about tooth placement)?

 

 

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Jaybot said:

Just a side thought, and probably completely wrong; what if it's an m2 (of probably not dire wolf, just talkin' about tooth placement)?

You are on the correct path... You basically have to use your clues,  then look for and eliminate possibilities. a C. dirus M2 would be exceedingly rare

[dries85]

3 hours ago, Jaybot said:

Just a side thought, and probably completely wrong; what if it's an m2 (of probably not dire wolf, just talkin' about tooth placement)?

 

 

Also what i was thinking, didn't want to make a fool out of myself with the experts around tho 😅 

[dries85]

For the second tooth i'm leaning towards Sus scrofa or something Pig alike.. i'm not sure, only back into fossil hunting for 1,5 year myself. 😆 

 

I think this would be the same tooth in a later stage.

 

 

Edited Friday at 10:19 PM by dries85

[Jaybot]

I think my specimen might be a Dire wolf m2.

I measured the length of the m2 in FLMNH, and it measured (approximately) 13.6 mm.

 

 

I have heard that Dire wolves varied quite a bit in size, and have myself seen a Dire wolf at the Top of the Rock museum in Branson, MO.  It was surprisingly small, but still a bit bigger than a Grey wolf.  Could my tooth go to a larger individual?

 

Also, I noticed the wear on one of Prehistoric florida's pictures of a Dire wolf m2, and they seem to be pretty close.  I think his specimen has just a little more wear on the chewing surfaces.

 

 

 

Thoughts/corrections?

[Jaybot]

1 hour ago, dries85 said:

Also what i was thinking, didn't want to make a fool out of myself with the experts around tho 😅 

Haha, you know more than me-  I’m learning this all on the fly! 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Jaybot said:

Haha, you know more than me-  I’m learning this all on the fly! 

Is it not GREAT when you figure something out for the 1st time. Then if you can remember the process.. 

[Jaybot]

16 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Is it not GREAT when you figure something out for the 1st time. Then if you can remember the process.. 

If only I could remember all that I have learned about fossils!!! 

Edited yesterday at 01:21 AM by Jaybot