ID HELP: Arizona fossils

[DilotheDino]

Hi everyone, I recently went on a dig in Payson, Arizona and found some fossils that I need help identifying. I attached below the info that I have on the area and the pieces. I think I know the identifications on some of the pieces but I’m not sure. It’s quite a few pieces as I’m a beginner and struggling with invertebrate identification so I greatly appreciate your time. Any information and help is appreciated. 
Thank you guys!  

 

LOCATION:

Payson, AZ 

Indian Gardens Paleo Site (Naco Formation) 

Pennsylvanian Time Period, ≈ 309 MYA 

Type of Rock: Limestone, Shale, Siltstone 

 

FOSSIL INFO:
(#1) 3/4” width

 

(#2) 3/4” width 

 

(#3) 2-3/8” height, 1-3/8” width 

 

(#4) 1/8” min width to 3/8” max width
        1/4” min height to 5/8” max height 

 

(#5) 5/8” width 

(#6) 5/8” width 

 

(#7) 1-1/8” width 

 

(#8) 1-3/4” width 

(#9) 1 inch height

 

(#10) 3/4” width 

 

(#11) 1 inch height 

(#12) 3/4” width 

 

(#13) 1-3/4” width 

 

 

[Brandy Cole]

I'm not familiar with your area, but number one looks similar to a glyptodont osteoderm.

[connorp]

2 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

I'm not familiar with your area, but number one looks similar to a glyptodont osteoderm.

These are Carboniferous fossils, so much much older.

 

1 - Part of a crinoid calyx

2 - Bryozoan

3 - Not seeing a fossil

4 - Maybe echinoderm parts, not sure

5 - Bryozoan encrusting what is probably a brachiopod

6 - Bryozoan encrusting something

7 - Not seeing a fossil

8 - Not seeing a fossil

9 - Bryozoan

11 - Not seeing a fossil

12 - This is a neat little piece. It is the brachiopod Composita encrusted by a bryozoan

13 - ?

[DPS Ammonite]

 

Welcome to the Forum.
 

4) crinoid calyx parts from type similar to #1

 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:07 PM by DPS Ammonite

[Coco]

Please it is better to write the information directly under each fossil, because made as here we have to scroll all the time

 

Coco

[ynot]

Agree with what others have said here.

[Brandy Cole]

23 hours ago, connorp said:

- Part of a crinoid calyx

Today I learned that a crinoid calyx can have a rosette pattern similar to glyptodont osteoderms. 

 

It's a good reminder for me that when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  I'm more familiar with pleistocene mammal material, which obviously led me the wrong direction.  It seems like I learn something new about marine fossils every day from the forum.

[DPS Ammonite]

Check out this reference about the Kohl’s Ranch site. The calyx may be Eirmocrinus, the most common crinoid.

 

http://www.savalli.us/BIO113/113downloads/FossilIDGuide.pdf

Edited Thursday at 02:29 PM by DPS Ammonite

[Mochaccino]

#1 is a partial anal sac "platform" of a Pirasocrinid crinoid
 

#4 has spines from such anal sacs, as well as first primibrach spines. Also from Pirasocrinids.
 

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/1-Crown-anatomy-of-Gennaeocrinus-goldringae-and-a-poteriocrine-the-two-crinoid-taxa-to_fig2_283080948

Edited Thursday at 02:59 PM by Mochaccino

[DPS Ammonite]

13 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

#1 is a partial anal sac "platform" of a Pirasocrinid crinoid
 

#4 has spines from such anal sacs, as well as first primibrach spines. Also from Pirasocrinids.
 

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/1-Crown-anatomy-of-Gennaeocrinus-goldringae-and-a-poteriocrine-the-two-crinoid-taxa-to_fig2_283080948

My ability to ID crinoids is poor.

 

Do you think that the crinoid posted by the OP in photo 1 and IDed by you is a new crinoid for the Naco or is part of an existing known species? If new, that would be an important find.

 

Here are link to several Naco Fm crinoid papers:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gary-Webster/publication/252321735_New_information_on_crinoids_Echinodermata_from_the_Pennsylvanian_Naco_Formation_of_central_Arizona/links/58a73e61aca27206d9ac3bd6/New-information-on-crinoids-Echinodermata-from-the-Pennsylvanian-Naco-Formation-of-central-Arizona.pdf

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=Naco+crinoids&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152602385&u=%23p%3Dmh-K8K_X8h8J

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=30&q=Naco+crinoids&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152789765&u=%23p%3D1yL1_tKYEfUJ

 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:19 AM by DPS Ammonite

[Mochaccino]

1 hour ago, DPS Ammonite said:

My ability to ID crinoids is poor.

 

Do you think that the crinoid posted by the OP in photo 1 and IDed by you is a new crinoid for the Naco or is part of an existing known species? If new, that would be an important find.

 

Here are link to several Naco Fm crinoid papers:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gary-Webster/publication/252321735_New_information_on_crinoids_Echinodermata_from_the_Pennsylvanian_Naco_Formation_of_central_Arizona/links/58a73e61aca27206d9ac3bd6/New-information-on-crinoids-Echinodermata-from-the-Pennsylvanian-Naco-Formation-of-central-Arizona.pdf

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=Naco+crinoids&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152602385&u=%23p%3Dmh-K8K_X8h8J

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=30&q=Naco+crinoids&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152789765&u=%23p%3D1yL1_tKYEfUJ

 

 

I am completey unfamiliar with this fauna so I would have to do some research and get back to you. I'll start with the references you provided as I am curious as well. However, even if it is potentially new, my guess is that you will not likely to be able to determine or describe a new taxon without the calyx, which is key to diagnosis. Even then, Pirasocrinid taxonomy is currently a bit of a mess. The best you could probably do for OP's specimen is "indeterminate Pirasocrinid", unless it matches an already-described crinoid.

 

Edited yesterday at 06:04 AM by Mochaccino

[Mochaccino]

3 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

My ability to ID crinoids is poor.

 

Do you think that the crinoid posted by the OP in photo 1 and IDed by you is a new crinoid for the Naco or is part of an existing known species? If new, that would be an important find.

 

Here are link to several Naco Fm crinoid papers:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gary-Webster/publication/252321735_New_information_on_crinoids_Echinodermata_from_the_Pennsylvanian_Naco_Formation_of_central_Arizona/links/58a73e61aca27206d9ac3bd6/New-information-on-crinoids-Echinodermata-from-the-Pennsylvanian-Naco-Formation-of-central-Arizona.pdf

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C3&q=Naco+crinoids&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152602385&u=%23p%3Dmh-K8K_X8h8J

 

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=30&q=Naco+crinoids&hl=en&as_sdt=0,3#d=gs_qabs&t=1720152789765&u=%23p%3D1yL1_tKYEfUJ

 

 

 

I looked through the references, and the only species of Pirasocrinid described from the Naco Fm. appears to be Eirmocrinus brewi, previously also known as Sciadiocrinus brewi and Eirmocrinus jeani. Below is the only figured specimen I can find of an articulated crown (Brew & Beas 1976). There doesn't seem to be a proper description of the anal sac platform in the literature that discusses the number of central and spinose plates, but at a glance OP's specimen isn't inconsistent with the figure. E. brewi is also one of the most common crinoids from the Naco. In my opinion the best identification for OP's specimen would be "cf. Eirmocrinus", or "indet. Pirasocrinid" depending on one's level of confidence.

 

[DPS Ammonite]

22 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

Pirasocrinid

Thank you.

 

I hope to go to the Kohl’s Ranch Paleo Site in a couple of weeks if the weather cools down into the lower 90s. 100 degrees plus is no fun.

 

Would love to find some large unidentified clams or edrioasteroids.

 

Sumrall, C. D. (1992). Spiraclavus nacoensis, a New Species of Clavate Agelacrinitid Edrioasteroid from Central Arizona. Journal of Paleontology, 66(1), 90–98. http://www.jstor.org/stable/1305891

[Mochaccino]

I would like to correct myself. I did some digging, and Strimple & Watkins 1969 clearly describes the anal sac termination of a crinoid known as Eirmocrinus grossus from Texas: Figure 1 of Plate 30 below. It has 13 spinose plates surrounding a platform of numerous polygonal plates. This is the type species for the genus Eirmocrinus and most comparable to the Naco Fm. Eirmocrinus brewi.

 

Brew & Beus 1976 doesn't give a clear description of the anal platform of the Naco Fm. Eirmocrinus. However in their comparison of the main differences between E. jeani (E. brewi) and E. grossus,  they make no mention of the anal sac, so the reasonable assumption is that they are similar. In my opinion OP's specimen is not consistent with E. grossus. Even though it is incomplete, I would estimate 10-11 spinose plates surrounding 8 central plates, whereas E. grossus has 13 spinose plates surrounding evidently significantly more than 8 central plates. The relative size of individual plates in OP's specimen are much larger as well, and the spinose plate shapes/proportions seem different with much larger bases.

 

So "indeterminate Pirasocrinid" is probably the best descriptor for OP's #1 specimen, and it may very well be a new/undescribed Pirasocrinid crinoid from the Naco Fm (unless it is a juvenile Eirmocrinus). @DilotheDino I urge you to keep this fossil safe and sound, as it could be important in case more material is found and someone does a proper description.

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Mochaccino

[DPS Ammonite]

27 minutes ago, Mochaccino said:

So "indeterminate Pirasocrinid" is probably the best descriptor for OP's #1 specimen, and it may very well be a new/undescribed Pirasocrinid crinoid from the Naco Fm (unless it is a juvenile Eirmocrinus). @DilotheDino I urge you to keep this fossil safe and sound, as it could be important in case more material is found and someone does a proper description.

Thank you @Mochaccino; you  made my day. Thanks for the large effort.

 

My feelings exactly. Keep this and make it available for study. You should put it is the Collections where I have several Naco Formation fossils. Let me know if you need help.

 

My experience with the Naco is that there is 2-3 times more species present than has been professionally described. I have found a few, especially sponges.

 

@DilotheDino

Edited 10 hours ago by DPS Ammonite

[DilotheDino]

I’m truly beyond words about this possible new discovery. This piece will be protected and safe with me unless it gets called for further research which I will gladly contribute this piece for study. I really can’t thank you both enough for going so in-depth on this piece and all the information you’ve provided. I’m really beyond words about this. I’d love to add this piece to the Naco Formation Collections for others to study and to spread awareness. Again, I greatly appreciate the effort you’ve put into this piece and all the knowledge you’ve provided. This is truly amazing.
Thank you so much

[DilotheDino]

I’m going to add this piece to the Member Collections forum and attach all the information provided as well. 
Thank you again 

[DPS Ammonite]

@DilotheDino

 

Consider joining the Southwest Paleontological Society in the Phoenix area. I lead one or two trips a year to the Naco Formation.

 

https://swpaleosociety.com

[DilotheDino]

That sounds amazing. I will be there for my first meeting this Tuesday. Very excited  

[DPS Ammonite]

5 minutes ago, DilotheDino said:

That sounds amazing. I will be there for my first meeting this Tuesday. Very excited  

Realize that the meeting is not at the Museum annex. It is at a nearby fossil store. Contact President, Sherman Mohler, for details. His contact info is on the SW Paleo Society’s webpage.

 

By the way, Sherman’s son, Ben, helped to sign the Indian Garden’s Paleo site as a Boy Scout eagle project. 

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by DPS Ammonite

[DilotheDino]

That’s so cool. Thank you so much for the info!