As what should I label this rare tooth once it arrives ? Also, what species is it ?

[Brevicollis]

Hello, as Im the lucky winner of the auction  () to this pretty rare tooth, I'm now asking myself the questions : what is it for a tooth (ID), how rare it really is, and as what I should label it and what does the short form cf. means.

 

The tooth apparently is a Carcharodontosaurid tooth from Laos, originating from the gres superieurs formation. The preservation is rough, like on most fossils originating from there, so I hope its even possible to ID it further.

 

As the gres superieurs formation is equivalent to the Khok Kruat formation, wich contains the remains of Siamraptor suwati, I wanted to ask as what I should label it, if there is a good chance that this might be a tooth from Siamraptor suwati,

and what the short form "cf." means, as I've seen it in all Siamraptor posts on the entire Forum.

 

Also, on a scale from one to ten, how are Carcharodontosaurid teeth this sice, from this formation ? If the question is even answerable 😅

 

The tooth is 2,5 inch or 6,3 cm long, wich is the biggest tooth I've ever seen originating from that formation , and pretty worn.

 

Thanks for any help, Ideas, answers, and replies ! Have fun 

 

[Kikokuryu]

It would be Carcharodontosauria rather than Carcharodontosauridae since Siamraptor usually falls outside of Carcharodontosauridae. The biggest tooth crowns from this deposit I've seen reach a little over 3 inches.

 

"cf." just means compared with or comparable to I recall. But technically, there are no known Siamraptor teeth to actually compare it to as far as I'm aware of.

 

Quote

 

Carcharodontosauria indet.

cf. Siamraptor suwati (?)

 

 

Unless you go with Cau's 2024 phylogeny that places Siamraptor (and Siamotyrannus) as basal tetanurans. In which case, switch carc with theropod.

 

Quote

 

Theropoda indet.

cf. Siamraptor suwati (?)

 

 

[Brevicollis]

What does it take to name and describe a new species ?

I dont want this tooth to be just Carcharodontosauria indet. or Theropoda indet., thats why I thought I might just give those not-Spinosaurid teeth from that formation a speciesname 

[Fossildude19]

2 minutes ago, Brevicollis said:

What does it take to name and describe a new species ?

 

 

 

 

[Brevicollis]

Ok, I've read throug this thread, and now I know : way to much that I wont do 

[Kikokuryu]

4 minutes ago, Brevicollis said:

What does it take to name and describe a new species ?

I dont want this tooth to be just Carcharodontosauria indet. or Theropoda indet., thats why I thought I might just give those not-Spinosaurid teeth from that formation a speciesname 

Join the club. You just have to accept the indet. as a tooth collector.

 

The problem is for teeth specifically, you'd need a skull with teeth. Since your specimen does not have serrations, you also have to hope whatever teeth associated with the skull material is complete enough to get CHR and CBR. Fortunately, your tooth is probably complete enough to get a general idea of CH, CBL, and CBW.

 

We're already stretching it just calling them "cf. Siamraptor suwati" when they probably shouldn't even be called that just on the basis of, no teeth associated with Siamraptor. The same goes for Ichthyovenator actually. Spinosaurid teeth from the Grès supérieurs Formation are actually Spinosauridae indet. But that ain't stopping us from calling it Ichthyovenator; although, only teeth with between 42-64 should be called Icthyovenator if you do go with that label, everything else with 22-32 ridges is cf. Siamosaurus sp.

 

This is a problem we have with the Kem Kem. We have Carcharodontosaurus and Sauroniops. We have teeth for Carcharodontosaurus (including the second species from Echkar), but not for Sauroniops. While it's most likely that Sauroniops has more basal teeth we find in the Kem Kem, we also cannot exclude the possibility it has indistinguishable teeth from Carcharodontosaurus. It is also nested closely to Eocarcharia which lacks some basal conditions like short mesial we see in the basal carc morphs. Then we have Deltadromeus, a headless dinosaur that occasionally gets slapped onto some teeth; we don't even know for sure if it's a megaraptoran, a nosasaurid, or something else entirely.

[Brevicollis]

Yes, looks like I'll have to accept the indet.

 

But is it okay, if I have my own name for it ?

I've came up with my own one that I'll only be using here at home, just because it sounds a little bit nicer than theropoda indet.

Edited August 18 by Brevicollis

[Kikokuryu]

4 minutes ago, Brevicollis said:

Yes, looks like I'll have to accept the indet.

 

But is it okay, if I have my own name for it ?

I've came up with my own one that I'll only be using here at home, just because it sounds a little bit nicer theropoda indet.

I mean, nobody will stop you, especially if only used in home and not online and open to scrutiny. I still tend to call all my Middle Jurassic ceratosaurid teeth from Isalo, Irhazer, and El Mers as Ceratosaurus sp., even though it probably isn't once everything gets described.

 

I know Prodeinodon sp. was used as a wastebasket tooth taxon for Asian carcharodontosaurians.

 

But I would personally just call it cf. Siamraptor suwati like everyone else. Because it probably is. We just can't prove it with current data.

Edited August 18 by Kikokuryu

[Brevicollis]

Thank you @Kikokuryu for your answers !

And @Fossildude19 too !

 

I'll label it as Siamraptor suwati cf. once it arrives.

[Brevicollis]

Sorry if this is now a dumb question, but are those cf. Siamraptor suwati teeth from there in this sice rare ? 

[Brevicollis]

Another question of mine is, if its possible to guess the rough tooth position in the skull. Its a bit thicker compared to other Carcharodontosauria teeth, so maxilary maybe ?

[Brevicollis]

Please keep yout fingers crossed for me, the tooth arrived a week ago at the customs office for pick up. They sent us a letter and a one week deadline to pick the package up. It just happend so, that the company that should bring us the letter on last Monday, was too lazy to bring it to us.

 

We just had a conversation with a guy of that company who drove here by, and he told us that he knew about that letter, and that he would bring it to us this day. After we asked him for it of course, otherwise he wouldnt have done so he told us.

 

Hopefully the tooth package will still be there next Monday when the customs office will be open again, otherwise I would be quite not that happy !

Edited Saturday at 12:32 PM by Brevicollis

[North]

51 minutes ago, Brevicollis said:

Please keep yout fingers crossed for me, the tooth arrived a week ago at the customs office for pick up. They sent us a letter and a one week deadline to pick the package up. It just happend so, that the company that should bring us the letter on last Monday, was too lazy to bring it to us.

 

We just had a conversation with a guy of that company who drove here by, and he told us that he knew about that letter, and that he would bring it to us this day. After we asked him for it of course, otherwise he wouldnt have done so he told us.

 

Hopefully the tooth package will still be there next Monday when the customs office will be open again, otherwise I would be quite not that happy !

Thats how the customs is done there?

 

In here you use tracking number to clear customs online and then it continues the delivery.

[Brevicollis]

3 minutes ago, North said:

Thats how the customs is done there?

 

In here you use tracking number to clear customs online and then it continues the delivery.

Not all the time. After my experience, If the custom duties are low, they usually ship the package to your location, and when they hand it to you, they say how high the duties are and you pay them in cash. If the custom duties are higher, they'll send it to the customs office the nearest to your location, then they'll usually send a letter and a deadline, when and where you can pick your package up. 

 

But if something goes wrong with the letter, it could be very well possible that the package will be sent back, before you even recieve the letter with the information.

And I hope thats not the case here !

[Brevicollis]

Thanks to everyone who crossed their fingers for me, as the tooth was still in the customs office today !
Thank you guys