Jaybot Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 Here’s a fun one. I found this tooth in some glacial deposits in NW Missouri, and these said deposits are known to have ‘Pleistocene’, ‘Cretaceous’, and ‘Permian’ animals…. which does not make fossil ID easy . In my opinion, this is a fish tooth due to the lack of carinae. However could it be a reptile tooth despite this? I’ve never found anything like before, so I’m a bit helpless with fish teeth If fish tooth, what kind? Thank you! 1 -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 Is that a clear acrodin cap on the tip? If so, I would say it is a fish tooth. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 1 Author Share Posted September 1 Interesting, learn something new every day . This is the tooth resting on a led lamp. Best I could get, as the whole tooth is very dark; almost molasses level of translucent. Would this be an acrodin cap? -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 I agree, this is most likely fish tooth of some sort. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 IPFOTM -- MAY - 2024 _________________________________________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 I believe I see an acrodin cap on your tooth, also. This is edited from a group shot of some of my micros. <5mm. The acrodin cap is clear on this one. This tooth is more round rather than flattened like yours, though. Plattsburg fm. Kansas 1 Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 (edited) Thank you everyone for the input! So, this is definitely a fish tooth then... any ideas which kind? I think it's too flat/blade like to be Amia or a gar. Is there any indicators or resources/papers that can help narrow this down at least to type? Thanks again EDIT: I have a nasty habit of wanting to id everything I find down to genus Edited September 2 by Jaybot -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 I tried to research acrodin cap and found little explaining what it is. Am I correct in assuming from my investigation that most fish teeth except sharks, sheepshead and coelacanths do not have enamel, and when they do, it is at the tip and called an acrodin cap. And this enamel evolved from scales? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 (edited) How would I know if my entire tooth is composed of enamel? Is there normally a noticeable line where enamel ends on the acrodin caps? My tooth doesn't seem to have a definite change where the cap ends... does that matter? Sorry for bombarding y'all with questions Edited September 2 by Jaybot -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 3 hours ago, minnbuckeye said: Am I correct in assuming from my investigation that most fish teeth except sharks, sheepshead and coelacanths do not have enamal and when they do, it is at the tip and called an acrodin cap. I found this pic of an extant coelacanth, note the transparency at the tip of the teeth. I wonder if that is an acrodin cap, or just more transparent enamel? -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 2 Author Share Posted September 2 @digit Thoughts on Barracuda tooth as the id for my specimen? I know you have a good deal of experience with them. Thank you! (not my image, from google) -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Most of the barracuda teeth are quite flat and only have a band of enamel along the edge. The more curved "fang" teeth" have a bit wider of a cross-section but I'm not seeing a familiar shape in your images (and I've picked out thousands of 'cuda teeth in Florida micro-matrix). Barracuda Teeth.pdf Cheers. -Ken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Harvey Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 22 hours ago, Jaybot said: Thank you everyone for the input! So, this is definitely a fish tooth then... any ideas which kind? I think it's too flat/blade like to be Amia or a gar. Is there any indicators or resources/papers that can help narrow this down at least to type? Thanks again EDIT: I have a nasty habit of wanting to id everything I find down to genus I'm with you Jay. I don't feel my collect is complete until I have a solid ID. You say the deposit may have cretaceous fossils. Could your tooth be an Enchodus? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 3 Author Share Posted September 3 23 minutes ago, M Harvey said: I'm with you Jay. I don't feel my collect is complete until I have a solid ID. You say the deposit may have cretaceous fossils. Could your tooth be an Enchodus? Good to hear I'm not alone Enchodus... That might be it! Looking through member's album pics of Enchodus teeth, I've seen a few that are very close. Also, this is the first id suggestion that matches in the anterior view. I think we may have found the id for this tooth, but if anyone thinks it may not be Enchodus, I'm happy to hear your input. Thank you so much everyone! -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 I’d go along with Enchodus. E. ferox and E gladiolus both have an s curve to them so I’d say it’s an Enchodus petrosus…. But I could be wrong…. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybot Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 On 9/2/2024 at 8:33 PM, Randyw said: I’d go along with Enchodus. E. ferox and E gladiolus both have an s curve to them so I’d say it’s an Enchodus petrosus…. But I could be wrong…. Thank you Randy! -Jay “The earth doesn't need new continents, but new men.” ― Jules Verne, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patelinho7 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Yes, I must admit I have no clue what an acrodin cap is besides how it looks. Can someone please explain how it is made and why it is specific/diagnostic to fish teeth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 I too would appreciate a knowledgeable member to explain acrodin caps or a good site to visit with such info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Link to paper. You must request a copy from the author. Abstract "Gars and bichirs develop scales and teeth with ancient actinopterygian characteristics. Their scale surface and tooth collar are covered with enamel, also known as ganoin, whereas the tooth cap is equipped with an enamel-like tissue, acrodin. Here, we investigated the formation and mineralization of the ganoin and acrodin matrices in spotted gar, and the evolution of the scpp5, ameloblastin (ambn), and enamelin (enam) genes, which encode matrix proteins of ganoin. Results suggest that, in bichirs and gars, all these genes retain structural characteristics of their orthologs in stem actinopterygians, presumably reflecting the presence of ganoin on scales and teeth. During scale formation, Scpp5 and Enam were initially found in the incipient ganoin matrix and the underlying collagen matrix, whereas Ambn was detected mostly in a surface region of the well-developed ganoin matrix. Although collagen is the principal acrodin matrix protein, Scpp5 was detected within the matrix. Similarities in timings of mineralization and the secretion of Scpp5 suggest that acrodin evolved by the loss of the matrix secretory stage of ganoin formation: dentin formation is immediately followed by the maturation stage. The late onset of Ambn secretion during ganoin formation implies that Ambn is not essential for mineral ribbon formation, the hallmark of the enamel matrix. Furthermore, Scpp5 resembles amelogenin that is not important for the initial formation of mineral ribbons in mammals. It is thus likely that the evolution of ENAM was vital to the origin of the unique mineralization process of the enamel matrix." 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 IPFOTM -- MAY - 2024 _________________________________________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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