Questions and Conversations Regarding Federal Land Fossil Collection

[Ged]

Hello Everyone,

 

I am currently working on a university paper regarding fossil collection on federal land. I'm proposing a new solution for monitoring, preserving, and collecting fossils on US public land. For this paper I was hoping to find someone on here who may be available to give me some ideas and critiques.

 

In short my proposal is to have a new centralized system where hobbyists can easily report fossil finds by submitting a photo and gps location of the find where then park services and academic institutions can easily review a database of these finds. If the fossil is already out of matrix or in an easily transported eroded chunk as is found in many beach / cliff sites a hobbyist may collect the fossil with the approval of an institution to be brought to that institution cutting down on the labor required. (This of course would not apply to fossils still in the formation). This organization may also allow for the approval of of more hobbyist level yet experienced collectors to get a certification allowing for preapproved less significant specimens to be collected from erosion risk areas and possibly prepared as well. 

 

Through my preliminary research it seems that many smaller national parks and public lands struggle to keep up with preservation in the ever increasing erosion due to natural processes. In areas of less important collection this system could help save fossils from being destroyed and allow new opportunities for hobbyists. On top of this it would create a public database for the monitoring and discovery of fossils.

 

This is just an idea and more of a hypothetical but I would really appreciate any feedback / critique.

 

Thank you,

-Ged

[fossilus]

One problem that I can see upfront is the danger of putting out a list that in theory can be accessed by many people will lead to large volumes of people of all types going after any sites that are put on the list until the sites are completely depleted.

[DPS Ammonite]

I might be interested in helping. I have an interest in US collecting laws on public lands and have tried to interest academics and institutions in some of my fossil finds.
 

Are you writing your paper in English?

 

I would recommend that the exact location of fossil finds not be mentioned to researchers and institutions until they are properly vetted and show interest. Give them a photo and a general location along with good stratigraphic info

[Kohler Palaeontology]

 

6 hours ago, fossilus said:

One problem that I can see upfront is the danger of putting out a list that in theory can be accessed by many people will lead to large volumes of people of all types going after any sites that are put on the list until the sites are completely depleted.

Yeah, some of the sites I've been to are almost dead but used to be thriving with fossils. 

[Fossildude19]

My fear would be that anything the government oversees will be slow to react, and bogged down in paperwork and red tape.

Review of the fossils to be collected will take time, and for anything at risk, that time lapse may be too much.

 

Also, think about what we deal with here. 

How many people would be quick to point out how many fossilized/petrified dino embryos and human petrified skulls and alien brains they find, wasting precious time?

It would all need to be reviewed, and all need to be looked into.

 

Instituting a good training and certification process would be key to getting people on board with any kind of system put in place.  Permitting would require passing the training and certification process. Many citizen scientists would be on board, but, as stated - a publicly accessible database would just point looters in the right direction.

 

[EMP]

You already are allowed to collect fossils on most federally owned land, provided it’s a reasonable amount, you don’t use any heavy tools to extract them, they’re “common” fossils (no vertebrates), and you only collect them for recreational purposes (I.e. you don’t sell them or trade them at mineral shows). That’s at least how it works with the BLM and Forest Service owned lands, except for designated Wilderness areas, National Landmarks, or areas explicitly protected for their paleontological/geological resources. There isn’t a database to report these finds to, but I agree with the others that any such database would be watched over by less-than-scrupulous people who’d then swoop in before anything could be properly collected. 

[Ged]

18 hours ago, fossilus said:

One problem that I can see upfront is the danger of putting out a list that in theory can be accessed by many people will lead to large volumes of people of all types going after any sites that are put on the list until the sites are completely depleted.

That seems like a fair problem several people brought up. Especially for new sites or little known ones. One way it could be combated is by only having sites which have been submitted many times be on the public list and other ones be on a private list only open to academics.

[Ged]

16 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

I might be interested in helping. I have an interest in US collecting laws on public lands and have tried to interest academics and institutions in some of my fossil finds.
 

Are you writing your paper in English?

 

I would recommend that the exact location of fossil finds not be mentioned to researchers and institutions until they are properly vetted and show interest. Give them a photo and a general location along with good stratigraphic info

Ok great. And yes the paper is in English. I find it interesting that you think researchers should not be given site locations. What is the rationale behind that?

[DPS Ammonite]

2 minutes ago, Ged said:

Ok great. And yes the paper is in English. I find it interesting that you think researchers should not be given site locations. What is the rationale behind that?

You should not at first give everyone a list with all the exact locations. General area is OK. Who knows what will happen to that list. Give them exact locality if they show interest and plan on doing something worthwhile with them.

[DPS Ammonite]

8 hours ago, EMP said:

designated Wilderness areas

At least with the BLM and the US Forest Service, there is no general prohibition for casual collect in wilderness areas. They can however, forbid collecting in any area including wilderness areas as long as it is properly published. Many if not all wilderness areas in Arizona allow collecting.

[Ged]

10 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

My fear would be that anything the government oversees will be slow to react, and bogged down in paperwork and red tape.

Review of the fossils to be collected will take time, and for anything at risk, that time lapse may be too much.

 

Also, think about what we deal with here. 

How many people would be quick to point out how many fossilized/petrified dino embryos and human petrified skulls and alien brains they find, wasting precious time?

It would all need to be reviewed, and all need to be looked into.

 

Instituting a good training and certification process would be key to getting people on board with any kind of system put in place.  Permitting would require passing the training and certification process. Many citizen scientists would be on board, but, as stated - a publicly accessible database would just point looters in the right direction.

 

I was thinking it would be more of an unaffiliated organization with leadership from professional paleontologists. Then it could be recognized as an institution allowing for an agreement with the government for it to give “soft” collection permits. As a group various paleontologists can join to certify hobbyists to help with various lower management.

 

In regards to the flood of unimportant submissions that is a major concern. Hopefully though most people without some interest in paleontology would not be as likely to fill out a form and submit it. Also by using certified hobbyists they could help to parse through possibly important or not important submissions to be reviewed by professionals. Something like how the id discussion works on the fossil forum works by outsourcing id.

[Ged]

5 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

You should not at first give everyone a list with all the exact locations. General area is OK. Who knows what will happen to that list. Give them exact locality if they show interest and plan on doing something worthwhile with them.

Oh ok I understand. It’s more a fear of the list leaking or being misappropriated if it’s all in one place. 

[DPS Ammonite]

Just now, Ged said:

Oh ok I understand. It’s more a fear of the list leaking or being misappropriated if it’s all in one place. 

Si.

[Ged]

8 hours ago, EMP said:

You already are allowed to collect fossils on most federally owned land, provided it’s a reasonable amount, you don’t use any heavy tools to extract them, they’re “common” fossils (no vertebrates), and you only collect them for recreational purposes (I.e. you don’t sell them or trade them at mineral shows). That’s at least how it works with the BLM and Forest Service owned lands, except for designated Wilderness areas, National Landmarks, or areas explicitly protected for their paleontological/geological resources. There isn’t a database to report these finds to, but I agree with the others that any such database would be watched over by less-than-scrupulous people who’d then swoop in before anything could be properly collected. 

Many areas however still do specifically ban collection. Not to mention the ban on vertebrates seems overly harsh. It’s not like there is a lack of small fish fossils or shark teeth (which to my knowledge count as vertebrate fossil). If these are to be destroyed by natural processes anyways it seems reasonable that after a review they can be collected.

[DPS Ammonite]

Part of what you are proposing, a database of photos, descriptions and general localities, is sort of already here on the Forum. I have told several professional paleontologists about finds on the Forum. I hope that we can convince professions to look here on a regular basis for interesting fossils to study.

 

For the finders of fossils on the Forum, we can help you determine if your find is important and direct you to the proper professional.

[Coco]

I wonder why we would anticipate the needs of professional paleontologists if they don’t. If this list is intended for them (unless I have misunderstood), they already know how to do their research, so why? Are you a professional paleontologist ?

 

Coco

[DPS Ammonite]

11 minutes ago, Coco said:

Are you a professional paleontologist ?

It would be interesting to know for what class or towards what degree this paper is for.

[jpc]

As a professional museum guy working in Wyoming (fossil-rich state), I wonder why you are focusing on US laws, when we could all enjoy more relaxed laws in Spain.  If I understand the Spanish laws, no fossil collecting is allowed at all. 

 

You seem to be asking for two things... one, a database that someone like me could look at and say, "oh, look, someone found some interesting bones at such and such a place", and, two, a total changing of the US laws allowing hobbyists to collect where no collecting is now allowed, as long as they bring the specimens to an approved museum.  I have worked extensively with the BLM to allow for some sort of system where amateurs could pick up bones when they find them and bring them to the Tate Museum (We are an approved BLM repository), and they seem to think that the best approach is to report the specimens with photos and GPS data.  Report to who?  To the BLM or to me... either one.  People reporting things to me is fine but bringing me unpermitted bones is not as per BLM rules.

     

BUT... do I want all sorts of people bringing me more unidentifiable fish bones than I can deal with without asking me first?  Or a pile of gar scales?  or even useless unidentifiable broken up dinosaur bones?  No, I don't.  Do I want to encourage folks to report stuff... yes, you bet I do.  Some of our best finds have been made by amateurs and landscapers and heavy equipment operators and utility workers and hunters, and mountain bikers etc on public and even private land.  When they call me I ask for photos before I am ready to drive across a very large state to look at a concretion.  The system works quite well.  In 20 years I have been here, we are now at a point where folks will find something and report it to the Tate Museum.  I actually have a long list of things I want to pursue that have been reported to me, including some cool Paleozoic sponges. 

 

So, if any of you are ever walking about on BLM land in Wyoming and you find a vertebrate fossil, please call me.  I am easy to find.  

 

           

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, jpc said:

  I actually have a long list of things I want to pursue that have been reported to me, including some cool Paleozoic sponges. 

Do you have pictures? I have collected lots of Paleozoic sponges in Arizona. Some brand new and need to be written up and some new to area.

[jpc]

13 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Do you have pictures? I have collected lots of Paleozoic sponges in Arizona. Some brand new and need to be written up and some new to area.

The guy brought some in and showed them to me in person.  But I may have a photo somewhere.....  but where?   

[sixgill pete]

So here in N.C. there a a few sites that are on National forest Land. They all have invertebrate and vertebrate fossils. While the vertebrate fossils are not supposed to be collected, many people do.  Nothing was ever said about it until someone started digging at one of the sites. Now, if a ranger see's you there he will come check you and you will be prosecuted if you have vertebrate fossils. All because someone(s) got greedy.