Florida Artifact Question For Local Members

[fossiljunkie]

i guess this question is directed more toward local florida fossil hunters but anyone that may know please reply. i just received a florida vertebrate permit. i'm planning a trip soon and noticed the ban on native american artifacts. my question is did the state decide this after some sort of burial site disturbances that are on record, or pillaging of a archeological site?. or did the state just decide they wanted to ban collecting for some other reason. i don't want to sound foolish here,and i know to some i might, but if an arrowhead or artifact is sitting on the surface of a creek out of context, in a non burial instance, is it better to let it erode away to nothing? i question that decision. especially since collectors may report a site of significance if that were the case.i remember not too long ago, reading that fossil hunters in florida were able to keep most artifacts, provided they fill out a form and report it. so what changed their mind? i'm primarily a fossil hunter and haven't really found artifacts in my location in south carolina, so i'm fine with fossils only because that is where my real passion lies, but i can't imagine how hard it would be to throw them back or how difficult it must it be to see a scraper, knife or arrowhead in the screen in pristine condition and throw it back in the creek. i was just curious if there was logical reasoning behind the decision, especially because they allowed it before and then they banned it.thanks everyone.

[Esteban]

I live in Florida, now, but used to live in S.C., so I am familiar with the laws of both states.

Florida USED to have an " isolated finds program, [ IFP ] " which was used to report artifacts. This was in addition to the fossil collecting permit. Some time ago, I think about 2004, this was done away with. Their reasons stated were that so many I.F.P. were issued but so few people/divers ever sent in a report. Whether or not we agree with that, really doesn't matter. It is illegal, now.

I think this link has a brief story about it.

http://www.flheritage.com/archaeology/underwater/finds/#

South Carolina, with its " Hobby License Program, " is one of the most liberal in the country. There were many similar complaints about divers not sending in the forms, too. I am surprised that their program hasn't changed in the last few years, too. I would suggest sending in those forms, whether you find anything or not, to keep the program active.

http://www.cas.sc.edu/sciaa/mrd/sdamp_hdl.html

Edited July 27, 2010 by Esteban

[fossiljunkie]

yes i agree with the forms. i know if you dive here in sc you just hand in quarterly reports and if you didn't find anything you just check off one box " no finds made". i guess one problem might have been that forms weren't sent in, but there still there were a lot of artifacts reported anyway, even if only from a small handful of individuals. but i think they should have left the program open in case significant finds were made. if no one is collecting items of significance they aren't likely to be reported either.

[Esteban]

yes i agree with the forms. i know if you dive here in sc you just hand in quarterly reports and if you didn't find anything you just check off one box " no finds made". i guess one problem might have been that forms weren't sent in, but there still there were a lot of artifacts reported anyway, even if only from a small handful of individuals. but i think they should have left the program open in case significant finds were made. if no one is collecting items of significance they aren't likely to be reported either.

Many people, including myself, sent in the forms, & thought it was a good program. I know some areas where you see many artifact pieces in the water, but you cannot retrieve them. Once it was about to be abolished there were meetings, discussions, & many letter sent in not to abolish it. BUT, these were to no avail. Everything pretty well " fell on deaf ears." Laws are laws, so we have to abide by them.

[Auspex]

"Cultural Artifacts" are a hot-button issue, perhaps second only to human remains.

Without even considering the enforcement issues, there are enough emotional ones to cloud the issue.

[fossiljunkie]

very true. sometimes you're just curious how it came about. thanks again.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

The State of Florida has banned the IFP (Isolated Finds Program). Driven behind the scene by Dr. Judy Bense of West Florida University in Pensacola and her brother Alan Bense this was brought forward on a last item on the agenda and passed to ban as I hear. Since this has happened the State of Florida will not get any onformation on isolated artifacts, artifact camp sites or paleo sites. Since this IFP ban no one ethical will ever hunt them, or collect them. Now the door is wide open for the illegal commercial hunters. What does this mean and what was it directed to protect? The main direction of the IFP was to stop destruction of Burial mounds, and maritime shipwrecks. Problem is this part of the collection is very limited to just a few people. The main reason we as collectors wanted the IFP and followed the rules was to collect artifacts from being lost by destruction by nature. The items we searched for were in rivers and other navigable waterways. These State Archaeologist have concluded that there is no significant data from River artifacts, context was lost long ago. These artifacts were swallowed by the rivers as they widened or changed paths, and then all accumulated in the waters which are owned by hte State of Florida.

If you find a 10 inch Paleo Clovis point in the Suwannee River you as a tax paying law abiding citizen can not touch it, photograph it, or document it. If you touch such item then you are liable for all citations and legal fees. You record would be charged with a misdermeanor. If you was in a WMA (Wildlife Management Area) you just commited a FELONY! Can you imagine picking up a flake or a quarter size piece of pottery and a game warden hand cuffing you and charging you with a felony over an item which has ZERO value! Is it worth the hassle! Is it worth the chance, well most people who walk the lands of Florida do not even know this law exists!

I fully understand protection of Burial Sites, and or maritime wrecks. These places hold time, data in context from the date of origination. We are not diggin up burials, we are wanting to regain our rights as citizens to save the past, rescue artifacts. We use our hand to fan the bottom of a river which has tumbled artifacts from MILES above where it may lay today. Everthing in a river moves. Since the context was lost by natures action the only recordable data that could be collected is the type and the location. Nothing else. The worst part is we can not touch anything in Florida Navigable waters over 50 years of age. So that Coke Bottle you pick up might be over 50, the items you and I desire to collect are illegal. We are criminals if we collect anything over 50 years of age. All the State did was eliminate all interaction from collectors and advocational archaeologist. They will never get any information of finds, all paleo sites which have been discovered since the ban will never be known. They shot them selves in the foot, and its all driven by JUDY BENSE of WEST FLORIDA UNIVERSITY. Its very apparent she has never been to the places I have and seen the artifacts which are being lost. Selfish desires by someone with power and relatives in high places. This was faught hard and dilligently by Artifact Collectors and Hobbiest. Mr. Puterra and others spent hours and thousands to help the people become free again to collect. Its just a matter of time before she retires or gets old and dies and hopefully our kids can collect and keep this going! Otherwsie the State can violate you by raiding your home and gathering all artifacts or associated personal property if you are caught or expected in illegal artifact removal. Remember you are the LOOTER... but the Archaeologist isnt because they made a drawing! Sorry to upset archs on here but when you dig up a burial mound for personal acknowledgement of finding a pot calling it a achievement, thats destruction of a burial, gifts from their friends and family for the Gods.

Im a Flintknapper, I study point types so that I can replicate them to resemble true artifacts of Florida. I probably know more about the types the flaking and the manufacture of the types, and regional material outcroppings than the archs in Florida. I want to know why paleo man used uniface tools, I want to help others understand why they made tools in such ways. I also study lithic material and through this understand why some cultures only had types that were 3 inches not 5 inches. Rock dictates a lot of characteristics of typology. Maybe this also helps us understand why they may have lived in an area 3000 feet from a water source? Who knows but my study and handling of knappable rocks from our State might help us understand. I live next to UWF, 15 minutes from my house. Do I support Judy Bense, NO. Do I attend UWF functions, YES. I am usually overwhelmed by people who want to see these ancient replicas made. I dont do it for Judy Bense though. She helped take away something my kids cant enjoy, for that she wont get any onformation or anyone I can contact about the IFP. She is the loser, we will wait for her to move on. We wil gain our rights back. '

My name is Steve Holloway, and I strongly believe in what I stated. I owe her or the State nothing. I fill out my Fossil collection sheet every 3 months. If I find a paleo or a site the State will never know. Truely Speculation without evidence! So come attack or harrass me, I make good replicas you best hope what you gather is the real deal and not something I made! LOL Biggest problem is collecting fossils and being harrassed by FWC which think that since Im diving Im looking for artifacts.

EDITED until the real story comes out....

STEVE HOLLOWAY

Edited July 27, 2010 by BOHUNTER

[fossiljunkie]

steve,

thanks for the reply. i thought when i made the post of how silly it is to ban it unless it were a burial or significant site. logic told me that most previous collectors who reported sites in the past wouldn't do so now because of the ban. and you post definitely is reaffirming that thought. it doesn't get much sillier for me. if the possibility exists that a previously unknown artifact remains undiscovered because it can't be touched by human fingers the law isn't helping anyone, it's just hurting the scientific community and the world to admire and open new schools of thought. i think only significant sites or burial sites should be off limits not an individual point or artifact. but the lawmakers have made the law in the state. the thought of the strongarm enforcement is completely wrong. no one has the right to drag someone or injure someone because they think they are doing something. when i read that in your post i was shocked and i hope the divers in your state have spoken their mind about that kind of handling of a issue. sounded like guilty until proven innocent in that case. again steve, thanks for your reply good luck to you and your fellow divers. i know it is a big community there, but remember there is some power in numbers, when it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

Don Painter was drug on the bottom of the Aucilla River in the worst limestone debris field bruised and bleeding and then made to strip down, because the suspected him hunting for artifacts when his loot was all fossil and ONE man made FLAKE! You cant see in the Aucilla, but he had one flint flake and thats what they caught him with, remind y9ou this was after they drug him on the bottom by his kayak which was attached and flagged as Diver Down. These officers commited a crime which was Diver Down Laws. I guess the law is the law........

You may want to get your facts straight before starting rumors...

[fossiljunkie]

prehistoric florida,

can you elaborate on the story. i'd like to know any other facts concerning the issue. but i don't want anything getting ugly here just the facts that you are aware of. thanks

[Guest BOHUNTER]

"WEEKLY REPORT

September 21-27, 2007

JEFFERSON COUNTY

On September 19, Officer Dale Wilcox and Gary Herndon checked an individual diving on the St. Marks River. Subsequent investigation revealed the individual was removing artifacts from the river bottom which is owned by the State of Florida. The artifacts were examined by the Bureau of Archeological Research in Tallahassee. The items taken from the St. Marks River were found to be human-made artifacts."

This is all I could pull up.Link was outdated and removed from FWC. I believe i heard he was pulled by his kayak while he was underwater. I then believe they handcuffed Don, without any evidence just their opinion of his stuff. Later Jim Dunbar says it was man made artifact. I dont know what Don picked up but it could have been no more than a simple percussion flake. In the eyes of Archaeology that is an Artifact. I believe that i heard he was searched by removal of his wet suit to his drawers. This was the story I was told.

Don Painter was over 70 years old at the time of this event.

Edited July 28, 2010 by BOHUNTER

[PrehistoricFlorida]

Anyone wanting the specific story with facts, ask me at a show.

[SharkTeethCollecter]

This boils my blood. I used to collect arrowheads and bring them home, I used to have a huge collection. But until today, I didn't know I couldn't even photograph them.

Personally, if you're going to make a law, make sure it's posted where people can see it and know that it exists, because I didn't even know this law existed until I came across this thread.

[Esteban]

In the Ocala newspaper, today.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100727/ARTICLES/100729782/1402/NEWS?Title=500-to-700-year-old-human-remains-found-near-Silver-Glen-Springs

[PaleoRon]

In the Ocala newspaper, today.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100727/ARTICLES/100729782/1402/NEWS?Title=500-to-700-year-old-human-remains-found-near-Silver-Glen-Springs

Interesting. Land sites provide useful information on past cultures. These sites can be "read" much like a book and need to be excavated and studied by professionals. Unfortunately, isolated finds that are no longer in context with other associated artifacts, like artifacts found in rivers, have almost no archaeological value. An honest archaeologist will readily admit this. An isolated artifact is like a single word torn from the pages of a book, the information you can get from it is extremely minimal. The underwater artifact laws were originally set up to protect valuable archaeological sites like shipwrecks or actual sunken habitation sites, but they have been twisted to encompass the most mundane pieces of trash imaginable and each year more isolated artifacts are destroyed as they tumble along the river bottoms.

It's much like the laws "protecting" vertebrate fossils on federal land, from fossil collectors, for "future generations" by allowing the fossils to be destroyed by the elements, or trampled to dust by cattle.

[fossiljunkie]

paleoron,

thanks.that was what i was saying when i fist started the thread. what good is leaving an out of context artifact on the stream bottom to erode away?. especially if there is a possibility of it being a new discovery. again, how can a new discovery be reported if it can't be touched. i don't see why they just don't allow collection of individual pieces that are out of context and ban any activity if an individual sees evidence, or suspects, that it may have been a burial item or part of a document-able archeological site. an artifact getting river tumbled to a smooth unrecognizable item is just silly to me. wouldn't it be better in a museum or personal collection? but i guess that's what these threads are for. what do fellow hunters think about the reasoning. as i said in the beginning, they allowed it at one time and then turned around and banned it. usually there is reason, but this one in florida doesn't really make much sense to me.thanks everyone for the replies.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

I love articles like this one.... Dont touch that broken piece of Pottery thats been tumbled for miles and weathered beyond recognition or we will slap you with a misdermeanor! Flip the page, we found some human remains, so this unknown individual is now dug up and placed in a box and given the name of FL-3918-A .....

Granted it may be in an area where they are going to excavate, well what do you do? "You just dont dig as deep right there!" If its to be paved or cemented over just let it be, no one inthis forum would like it if we went to the cemetary and dug up Momma to see if she had been beated to death or if her toes were deformed.... this is the part of the "LAW" which I say has given others the right to steal. Do you know or understand the temptation of employees or students starring at a box of Paleo pieces donated by someone... You can t imagine how many items curated by the Archaeologist disappear. I wonder where they went!

As you can tell Im against the Banning of the IFP!

So you dug up a human only 500 years old.......... its probabl safe to safe he had no family left, but you took him from the Earth he was laid to rest in no matter whom is God was. I just have a serious issue with that. The Certification of Archaeologist doesnt make it right.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

http://www.archaeology.org/0511/abstracts/letter.html

[Dave Bowen]

Anyone wanting the specific story with facts, ask me at a show.

Why don't you tell the rest of us where to find the facts? I would love to know, but I will never see you at any show.

[worthy 55]

"WEEKLY REPORT

September 21-27, 2007

JEFFERSON COUNTY

On September 19, Officer Dale Wilcox and Gary Herndon checked an individual diving on the St. Marks River. Subsequent investigation revealed the individual was removing artifacts from the river bottom which is owned by the State of Florida. The artifacts were examined by the Bureau of Archeological Research in Tallahassee. The items taken from the St. Marks River were found to be human-made artifacts."

This is all I could pull up.Link was outdated and removed from FWC. I believe i heard he was pulled by his kayak while he was underwater. I then believe they handcuffed Don, without any evidence just their opinion of his stuff. Later Jim Dunbar says it was man made artifact. I dont know what Don picked up but it could have been no more than a simple percussion flake. In the eyes of Archaeology that is an Artifact. I believe that i heard he was searched by removal of his wet suit to his drawers. This was the story I was told.

Don Painter was over 70 years old at the time of this event.

Steve , I talked with Don at a LiveOak show a few years ago (2007) where you made a killer Newnan for me and SeBill was there also. Any ways he told me that he was drug while he was underwater by two FWC officers that started to tow his boat that he was tied to. He said that he almost drown and the piece that is in question was a bone with some cut marks on it.That's what I remember him saying about that. That was not right in any case!

Edited July 28, 2010 by worthy 55

[fossiljunkie]

worthy,

thanks for that information. you would think they thoroughly investigate before acting. sounds like poor judgment. if the boat was towed they should have seen any dive flags or some sign that someone was attached i would think. have to wonder about what common sense was used, right. no matter how you look at it, it sounds like it was handled in a wrong way. people should be given a chance to explain themselves. i don't dive, but for the last few months i had thoughts of getting into it here in south carolina. that story in florida is worry-some no matter what state you may dive. hope it's an isolated example. i know you guys are doing a lot of diving and maybe the buddy system is all the more important if the possibility of getting dragged around exists. at least your buddies might help see something ahead of time if you don't yourself. i love all the finds all you guys find on your dives.keep them coming.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

I then believe they handcuffed Don, without any evidence just their opinion of his stuff. Later Jim Dunbar says it was man made artifact. I dont know what Don picked up but it could have been no more than a simple percussion flake. In the eyes of Archaeology that is an Artifact. I believe that i heard he was searched by removal of his wet suit to his drawers. This was the story I was told.

Steve , I talked with Don at a LiveOak show a few years ago (2007) where you made a killer Newnan for me and SeBill was there also. Any ways he told me that he was drug while he was underwater by two FWC officers that started to tow his boat that he was tied to. He said that he almost drown and the piece that is in question was a bone with some cut marks on it.That's what I remember him saying about that. That was not right in any case!

Once again - There has been a lot of hearsay and rumors started with this thread. If you do not know the whole story with accurate details, PLEASE do not start rumors.

[fossiljunkie]

prehistoric florida,

when i started the thread i only wanted the facts if anyone knew them. i don't live in florida to be able to get the facts from you during a show like you stated in one of your replies. would you be willing to give me the facts that you have in a pm? thanks

[PrehistoricFlorida]

The personal attack was going too far.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

Sorry if you feel attacked. I offered information people didnt know about, you turned it down, Maybe it was off a little, maybe some details were left out... the fact is a Local Diver who was 70 years old was harrassed in a very unprofessional manner by The State of Florida Game and Fish Wouldnt you like to know about this before it happens to you? Hey some people didnt even know it was a LAW that you couldnt touch an artifact.

If you know, tell everyone. Im wondering why you wont tell. Its public record. Send us a link.

Wait till the game and fish drag you up from the bottom.... thats an attack. What Alabama did to Tebow thats an attack....