Sloth Observation

[Guest BOHUNTER]

I went diving last week and got home just to be sick the last 4 days. So I havent been around much. I guess when the sign reads Lowland Sewage facility you dont dive near there......

I was looking on here today and just saw an image of a Sloth bone. What is unique to me is I also have seen 2 more recently the same size which are broken inthe SAME exact spot. I thought it was unique for the bone and wondered if others had seen this same break point. Was is some Paleo Indian dinner, bipolar crushing point. Just foor for thought. My friend Drew qho is a member here has some unique items also. Im gonna see if we can get some discussion started about them. All broken in the same spot. Was it marrow extraction? Hmmmm Only science could tell.... Land and water finds.

Here is the image posted today by CAROLYN. Thanks for posting.

Edited September 24, 2010 by BOHUNTER

[Auspex]

As I understand it, green bones (broken while fresh, whether for marrow or not) will have a "spiral" fracture. Breakage after mineralization will often be straight across.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

Sloth? None of these bones are sloth...

[Guest BOHUNTER]

Whats the far right bone? I thought it was Sloth?

steve

Either way... LOL I have seen three of those broken exactly the same spot.

As for Fresh green breaks they do break in a spiral. Its very unique to green bone only. Thanks

Edited September 24, 2010 by BOHUNTER

[Harry Pristis]

Whats the far right bone? I thought it was Sloth?

steve

Either way... LOL I have seen three of those broken exactly the same spot.

As for Fresh green breaks they do break in a spiral. Its very unique to green bone only. Thanks

Carolyn's bones appear to me to be deer humerus (least certain), bison or cow metapodial, and bison distal humerus.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

The end of the bones I have seen are from the Chipola, Suwannee and this one, all look just alike. Ive see a lot of cow bones but these are 5-6 inches wide at the joint. Thats a HUGE bone. I dont know the size of a buffalo but it seems like its a very big bone from a large animal. I would like to see a picture of some to say, "Dang, sure is!"

Im hoping Drew will post his bones so we can discuss something else .... Where are you drew!!!

[tracer]

table three in the linked file shows some average distal humeri breadths for bison, besides just being an interesting article on how bison got smaller. link

by the way, i'm NOT getting into the discussion over whether one semi-dark picture of the broken end of a bone belongs to a bison just because it didn't belong to a sloth. but at that size, there's only so many north american things it could have been from. and it does resemble bison and it does not at all resemble sloth.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

The end of the bones I have seen are from the Chipola, Suwannee and this one, all look just alike. Ive see a lot of cow bones but these are 5-6 inches wide at the joint. Thats a HUGE bone. I dont know the size of a buffalo but it seems like its a very big bone from a large animal. I would like to see a picture of some to say, "Dang, sure is!"

Im hoping Drew will post his bones so we can discuss something else .... Where are you drew!!!

Bo,

I realize these bones were not posted for ID, but nothing about them resembles sloth. The bone on the far right is a fragmentary bison humerus.

Please view this thread: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/15628-lets-all-please-be-appreciative/

It is very informative when considering the identifications by the experts on this forum (ie. Harry and Tracer). Please consider this before questioning positive identifications by people who really know what they're talking about.

[Harry Pristis]

The end of the bones I have seen are from the Chipola, Suwannee and this one, all look just alike. Ive see a lot of cow bones but these are 5-6 inches wide at the joint. Thats a HUGE bone. I dont know the size of a buffalo but it seems like its a very big bone from a large animal. I would like to see a picture of some to say, "Dang, sure is!"

Im hoping Drew will post his bones so we can discuss something else .... Where are you drew!!!

You know, 'BOHUNTER', I had the same reaction when I saw that set of bones . . . that appears to be a huge distal humerus. I actually looked at both mammoth and mastodon humeri to eliminate them.

I think what has happened here is in part due to perspective. The distal end of the bison humerus is so much closer to the lens than is the $10 bill that the bone seems outsized.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

A google search yielded these two images. In the first image is a bison humerus, in the second image is a sloth humerus.

[Guest BOHUNTER]

F O R G E T - I T !

I wanted to pick the brains of the board on why this paticular bone was broken where you see it in the image CAROLYN posted. Out of the only 3 I have seen all were broken in the same spot. I have not seen a whole one. My ID came from a reliable source so I used it. Was the damage man made, or predator? Could it be natural from time or did the animal lose the leg in a car accident? I thought that beyond your vast superior paleontological knowledge you might want to find out why this happened. Its very clear you dont know and dont care. I do know this bone is very large, from my memory Id think it was around 4.50" to 5.50" wide on the rounded swirly end. I tried to look for the bones and I even looked at my FLMNH images to spot this one and couldnt. I hate that I upset you, for heavens sake Ill just keep the thinking to a minimal. I think its just weird but yet its kinda neat that bones break the same way from different parts of the USA, land or river finds.

STEVE HOLLOWAY

[Auspex]

So, what you are looking for is speculation on why three bones you've seen are broken in the same way? Sorry we got off on a tangent.

I'd like to see a brighter pic of the broken area of "the big bone". I have at hand a copy of Sinibaldi's "What Your Fossils Can Tell You", which might have a relevant illustration.

[tracer]

The structural strength of various areas of similar bones should be similar. Them breaking in similar places isn't strange. If there are tool marks, cut marks, pound marks, scraped out cancellous bone, or in any other manner "worked on", then ok. But otherwise, they're just broken.

[Harry Pristis]

Try to imagine how difficult it would be to snap a green bison humerus over your knee or by using a rock.

What I have seen - with much-lighter deer long-bones - are perforations through which the Native Americans could remove the marrow. It's much easier to punch holes than to break the bone. You can put an extreme amount of pressure on the bone cortex if you confine the force to a small area. It's the same principal as with any tool: force divided by area = pressure (or something like that).

A Native American might use a pointed stone tool, perhaps hafted, to perforate a bone before sticking it into a soup pot. Or, more likely, she might put two holes (common) to suck out the cooked marrow.

I might have examples in storage, maybe I'll look tomorrow.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Harry Pristis

[Carolyn]

F O R G E T - I T !

I wanted to pick the brains of the board on why this paticular bone was broken where you see it in the image CAROLYN posted. Out of the only 3 I have seen all were broken in the same spot. I have not seen a whole one. My ID came from a reliable source so I used it. Was the damage man made, or predator? Could it be natural from time or did the animal lose the leg in a car accident? I thought that beyond your vast superior paleontological knowledge you might want to find out why this happened. Its very clear you dont know and dont care. I do know this bone is very large, from my memory Id think it was around 4.50" to 5.50" wide on the rounded swirly end. I tried to look for the bones and I even looked at my FLMNH images to spot this one and couldnt. I hate that I upset you, for heavens sake Ill just keep the thinking to a minimal. I think its just weird but yet its kinda neat that bones break the same way from different parts of the USA, land or river finds.

Thank you for your interest. I took 2 additional photos and have measurements for you. At the break in the bone the width of the bone is 1/2". The widest "knuckle" part has a measurement of 14 1/2" around.

At the break the bone is 8 1/4" around. This bone is very heavy at I apologize for the green on the bone..it was in a shady part of a river bank and it has been just lightly cleaned. Needless to say, being from Iowa, I have seen my share of cow, deer, coyote, possum, and raccoon bones. This is not! and since there were also 3 partial bison skulls and numerous bison jawbones I just assumed bison.

[Carolyn]

Here is an additional photo of the "bison" bone at the break. Weight is 2lbs. It is 14 1/2" at the widest part of the "knuckle" the width of the bone is 1/2" at the break and the bone is 8 1/4" around at same.

I am also curious as to why so many of the bones I find seem broken so oddly..Maybe a bus instead of a car? Thank you for your interest. I apologize for the green on the bone..it was in a shady part of a river bank and it has been just lightly cleaned. Needless to say, being from Iowa, I have seen my share of cow, deer, coyote, possum, and raccoon bones. This is not! and since there were also 3 partial bison skulls and numerous bison jawbones I just assumed bison.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Carolyn

[bear-dog]

Cant we all just get along? :lol:

[Harry Pristis]

Thank you for your interest. I took 2 additional photos and have measurements for you. At the break in the bone the width of the bone is 1/2". The widest "knuckle" part has a measurement of 14 1/2" around.

At the break the bone is 8 1/4" around. This bone is very heavy at I apologize for the green on the bone..it was in a shady part of a river bank and it has been just lightly cleaned. Needless to say, being from Iowa, I have seen my share of cow, deer, coyote, possum, and raccoon bones. This is not! and since there were also 3 partial bison skulls and numerous bison jawbones I just assumed bison.

Thank you for the additional information, Carolyn. (You did understand that "green" bone refers to "fresh" bone and not to any resident algae, right?)

I am puzzled by your measurement of 14.5" around the widest part of the "knuckle." Can you give us the measurement from one side of the knuckle to the other, as in this line-drawing of a tibia head (the 88mm dimension). Circumferences are not so useful when using these two-dimensional images.

[flflintknapper]

I have the other example of bone like Carolyn has. I thought it was too large to be a Bison and thought maybe it could be a Sloth, or other large ground animal. I will take a pic today and post it.

[Fruitbat]

The large bone in the original post definitely looks to be Bison (as does the middle bone in the picture). I've found a number of Bison humeri over the years and have not personally seen one broken in the manner pictured. The break is in the narrowest part of the humerus, however, and I suppose if a bison humerus was going to break naturally then that is the place that it would be most likely to happen.

Carolyn...did you happen to get any pictures of the Bison partial skulls that were found in the same vicinity? I'd love to see them if you did! Also...is it possible to get a closer picture of the break in the bone? If it was deliberately damaged by human action then I'd expect to see some signs of splintering in the area of the break.

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of the other humeri that have similar breaks.

-Joe

[Carolyn]

Thank you for the additional information, Carolyn. (You did understand that "green" bone refers to "fresh" bone and not to any resident algae, right?)

I am puzzled by your measurement of 14.5" around the widest part of the "knuckle." Can you give us the measurement from one side of the knuckle to the other, as in this line-drawing of a tibia head (the 88mm dimension). Circumferences are not so useful when using these two-dimensional images.

I will try to clarify the measurements.and yes, having broken at least 2 of my own bones, I am very familiar with a the term "green" bone. The apology was for the coloration of the bone/bones. I am attaching another photo of the main area with new measurements. On the right .the top to bottom measurement is 4 1/2" as is the measurement from front to back (the depth) in the photo. Hope this helps. The tile that the photo is taken on is 12" X 12".

[Carolyn]

The large bone in the original post definitely looks to be Bison (as does the middle bone in the picture). I've found a number of Bison humeri over the years and have not personally seen one broken in the manner pictured. The break is in the narrowest part of the humerus, however, and I suppose if a bison humerus was going to break naturally then that is the place that it would be most likely to happen.

Carolyn...did you happen to get any pictures of the Bison partial skulls that were found in the same vicinity? I'd love to see them if you did! Also...is it possible to get a closer picture of the break in the bone? If it was deliberately damaged by human action then I'd expect to see some signs of splintering in the area of the break.

I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of the other humeri that have similar breaks.

-Joe

Joe, I am enclosing another close up of the break and 2 photos of the best skull. Everything was found in the same area in and along a small river.

[Carolyn]

I went diving last week and got home just to be sick the last 4 days. So I havent been around much. I guess when the sign reads Lowland Sewage facility you dont dive near there......

I was looking on here today and just saw an image of a Sloth bone. What is unique to me is I also have seen 2 more recently the same size which are broken inthe SAME exact spot. I thought it was unique for the bone and wondered if others had seen this same break point. Was is some Paleo Indian dinner, bipolar crushing point. Just foor for thought. My friend Drew qho is a member here has some unique items also. Im gonna see if we can get some discussion started about them. All broken in the same spot. Was it marrow extraction? Hmmmm Only science could tell.... Land and water finds.

Here is the image posted today by CAROLYN. Thanks for posting.

Bohunter, great thoughts..south and west of my home is an area in Shenandoah Iowa where they did find a giant sloth. I am enclosing the link http://slothcentral.com/ Tarkio Valley Sloth Project I think you will find it interesting..since they are down stream!!! maybe I will find one? just kidding

Edited September 25, 2010 by Carolyn

[tracer]

i see nothing about the fracture to indicate that it wasn't done by nature. what happens frequently is that bones which are preserved are buried in tightly compacted, dense clay/shale or even sandstone type material, which is a major factor in why they were preserved in the first place. in some instances, the ground itself puts stresses on the fossil bone (or even things like fossil wood) and breaks it. but what also happens, especially along places like rivers, is that the bone can partially be eroded out from the matrix, but still be partially held very firmly in it, so that anything that comes along and hits the exposed part is likely to break it off. also, the entire bone can end up in the river and as it's carried downstream be subjected to lots of forces, including being wedged in rocks and broken by other debris being carried downstream. eventually a lot of it gets so fragmented that it ends up as unrecognizable small pieces of "leaverite", as in "leave her right where you found her".

human-altered bone shows some non-random alteration, and it especially frequently shows all of the cancellous bone (marrow) removed, because humans had very hard-scrabble lives back when and did not let the very important marrow of bones go to waste.

edit: just thought of something. have to correct myself. scraped marrow was probably much more important around where i live. those who live where humans had large numbers of bison and killed a bunch of them at once were probably much less focused on wringing every last bit of nutrition out of them.

[bear-dog]

F O R G E T - I T !

I wanted to pick the brains of the board on why this paticular bone was broken where you see it in the image CAROLYN posted. Out of the only 3 I have seen all were broken in the same spot. I have not seen a whole one. My ID came from a reliable source so I used it. Was the damage man made, or predator? Could it be natural from time or did the animal lose the leg in a car accident? I thought that beyond your vast superior paleontological knowledge you might want to find out why this happened. Its very clear you dont know and dont care. I do know this bone is very large, from my memory Id think it was around 4.50" to 5.50" wide on the rounded swirly end. I tried to look for the bones and I even looked at my FLMNH images to spot this one and couldnt. I hate that I upset you, for heavens sake Ill just keep the thinking to a minimal. I think its just weird but yet its kinda neat that bones break the same way from different parts of the USA, land or river finds.

Calm down.Everyone here is very friendly and helpful.Just remember a saying an aunt taught me.If you can't say something nice about someone....wait till they leave and then talk about them. :lol: No seriously,lighten up everyone here is your friend.They are all helpful.