Permits, Selling And Buying

[Molly]

Recently in my museum studies class, we've been discussing the legalities of collecting fossils, and the ethics of personal collections of museum members/employees etc (boring stuff, I know). It got me thinking, though. Since I work in a research facility/museum, would it be 'right' to collect fossils as a hobby? I've actually never been collecting before, but now that I think about it, I'm not so sure.

It would be fun to collect for the research and/or teaching collections, just to experience it. But I don't feel like I should keep the fossils I find. I know there are restrictions on collecting vert-fossils in some regions (we had a talk from the main paleontologist of BLM) but I'm not sure what the limits are first of all in regards to collecting in general, and secondly to keep.

Thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

If you are at a dig for the museum, you should not keep any specimens unless your museum paleontologist allows you to. Also, you should resist using your museum credentials to gain access to sites unless you make it clear to the property owner that you are there for your own collection and not that of the museum. Also, you would not want to "use" the museum and only collect at sites they have taken you to or told you about. Find some on your own using the knowledge you have gained as a student and collector. You are correct that some fossil types are restricted on public lands, but those laws do not apply to privately owned lands. Keeping fossils you find on your own time is perfectly fine and legal when collected legally.

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

One other thing since your title mentions selling fossils. I have yet to go to a museum of natural history where they do not sell fossils in their gift shops. This includes the Smithsonian, Royal Tyrrell,and Field Museum. However, I have read numerous articles by professional paleontologist lamenting the buying and selling of fossils. And many museums will periodically sell off unwanted items from their collections. So it is OK to buy and sell fossils.

Edited November 29, 2010 by N.AL.hunter

[Molly]

Thanks for all the tips. Yeah, I didn't consider digging on private land - that's something I'll have to look into. If I were to find something of research value, I could always donate it but how would I know it has research value? (permitting locality information and other data is recorded)

Haha, I forgot to mention the selling of fossils, thanks for bringing it up. I suppose there would be different view points on it.

[32fordboy]

This is a very talked about subject and, like any other form of polotics, the debate can get heated. Regarding permits, I don't think they would change anything except for the fact that somebody would be making money on them. Unethical people will always be out there. There is no good way to determine who gets permits, and enforcing them would be extremely difficult.

As far as the museums vs collectors debate, there's no definitive answer and the debate will go on no matter what. I personally believe collectors have just as much right to fossils as museums do. Museum personell sometimes complain about all the scientific specimens collectors have hidden away. They don't tell us museums are just as bad. They tell us fossils are "for the world", yet they have thousands of specimens hidden away. Specimens they say they will look at one day. When is one day? I think a museum is just a collector with a large building to show their collection.

On the other hand, the potentially dangerous collectors are the bazillionaires who casually collect for decorative purposes. Somebody collecting specifically for decorative purposes will tend to not care about the importance of their fossils.

I am a fan of free fossil trade (obviously), though I realize there are occaisions where a scientific specimen might go into somebody's basement (the museum would do the same thing with it ).

Now, back to permits, the big question is how will they be handed out and enforced? There is a reason the government doesn't want us messing around on their land. It's not about the fossils, it's about careless people "mining", people trashing the place (in my opinion).

P.S. If you find a fossil on private land with permission and you are sure it's of little scientific value, keep it! It's a treasure that's been waiting for you to find it. I notice you're in Boulder. Next season, I'd be happy to have you go fossil hunting with us!

P.P.S. I realize I get passionate on this subject, so I apologize for the novel.

Edited November 29, 2010 by 32fordboy

[Molly]

This is a very talked about subject and, like any other form of politics, the debate can get heated. ...

No problem, I really appreciate the viewpoints! Very enlightening to hear the other side. I suppose I'm all about the scientific factor, just learning as much as possible about the fossils, and yet there are millions of 'dusty' specimens sitting in the research collections in any museum. Even so, all the fossils ever discovered are only a fraction of what life existed at any given geological date, and so I feel almost any fossil has research value. Free fossil trade is fantastic, but so is the gain of knowledge.

I guess I need to figure out why I want to collect fossils - I would want to study the ones I collect in my own time, write about what I find out, and pass these down as heirlooms or gifts.

It would be awesome to go on a dig with you!! I'd love to next season! Thanks for the invite!

[32fordboy]

No problem for the invite. The list of people wanting to go is a long one and I'm always willing to share the excitement of the hunt.

[tracer]

howdy, ma'am. you touched on a touchy touchstone here. most folks get kinda wild-eyed when they're on either side of the triad of teh fossil hoar fabrica peddl um, collecting and/or redistributing paradigmaticalisms. it's like this - depending on who i am, i think...

(1) if i can find it and wrangle it home, it's mine, no matter where or how i got it. and it's valuable, so stay away from it, cuz it's mine.

(2) i'm a scientist, so i have a "higher purpose" in being in possession of this, to study and preserve it for all of mankind, if they have the twelve bucks or up to buy access to read the paper i may write about it if the plaster jacket doesn't get lost in the bowels of the hallowed institution which i so admirably frequent as long as the "publish-or-perish" thing doesn't get in the way of groveling for grant money.

(3) i love fossils and must own and possess them and cuddle and hug them and put them in amongst the piles of other important (and some shiny) things that i've hoarded for the amusement of myself and my cats.

(4) i have to make a living and i have a perfect right to do so without working a regular job or having a boss or dealing with those icky W-2 Forms.

so basically, you got a clash of titans goin' on over the fossil thing. i'd say do whatever you want to do but don't talk about it much, especially not on the internet, if you ever want to fit in with any given group members who passionately fit into any of the various categories of folks who risk their lives for rocks.

[Wrangellian]

All of you have made good points and I don't know why there is even a debate when so many of us share a reasonable opinion on these matters.

As for private collecting in general: I don't think the scientific community should worry too much about valuable fossils being in the hands of avid collectors, most of whom like myself are interested in the science of it and are conscientious about keeping the data with their finds, and would gladly give the professionals access to their collections.. and as I said elsewhere, the private collections often get shown to the public more than the museum collections! (at rock shows, etc). What collector doesn't like to show off their finds? Though I suppose they aren't as likely to last as long in somebody's house as in a museum, what with the risk of house fires etc. but what museum has the room for that many fossils even if they never get put on display??

About selling:

I am a member of the Victoria Paleo Soc. and they are dead set against the selling of fossils. I suppose that's for 2 reasons - that they don't want to encourage the business of hunting and selling fossils whereby the scientific data can be so easily lost, and also because they are a non-profit society and don't want to jeopardize their status as such by ennabling members to learn about sites and collect from them for profit. These are the only reasons I can see for them to have this policy, tho they are good ones.

But I don't know if they are just shooting themselves in the foot.. I don't know what they think about trading, I assume they're more favorable to it, but for someone like myself who would simply like to recover their costs accrued by collecting, by selling their surplus - or their whole collections minus the scientifically valuable ones that I would eventually donate to a museum - it's a restriction that I could do without, and I am still thinking about whether I will even renew my membership. Not that there aren't good reasons to renew, I just have to weigh the pros and cons, and I wonder how many potential new members have not joined because of this restriction? It seems to me the scientific-minded members of Paleo Societies like myself, should be the last people to be barred from buying an selling fossils! We are the ones who do so most responsibly, as compared to the general population. But I suppose all these stipulations would be hard to enforce (in the general population at least) if selling were to be allowed, so I realize it's a tricky problem.

I'd like to hear more opinions on this from others. Would making the selling of fossils illegal for everybody make things easier for scientists, or would it just result in more poaching which is a problem even at the few protected site like the Burgess Shale? I suppose if I had more money I would come down more on the side of 'no selling'. But that's just me.

And is there such a thing as a non-valuable fossil, scientifically? If not then I would be reluctant to even trade away any of my fossils, thinking they should be kept together. But if the museum won't take ALL of my stuff, then I will eventually have to decide what to do with the stuff they won't take.

Well that's enough, If I write too much nobody will want to read it all!

[BobWill]

In addition to museums selling fossils some serious paleo societies fund their activities with auctions of surplus donated by members. I think it's unlikely they would let something important for research (or paper-writing) slip through unnoticed. I've always wondered if a university or other museum would accept donations or loans on the condition that they not be stuck away and never seen or only allowed to take possession of specimens when someone is ready to study, display, or write a paper on them. When the law is not involved it seems like the finder should be the one to make all the decisions.

Wrangellian is right about showing off his finds. For anyone feeling guilty about hoarding you could take your best fossils to you local school and give the little tykes a show-and-tell, even let them bring their own treasures along to be identified (what better time to teach responsible collecting).I do this for the 3 fourth grade classes in Valley View every year and it's earned me the title "Fossil Bob" to a whole generation. This is a huge part of the joy I take from what's really just a hobby for me.

Edited November 30, 2010 by BobWill

[32fordboy]

"I suppose that's for 2 reasons - that they don't want to encourage the business of hunting and selling fossils whereby the scientific data can be so easily lost..."

When museums have thousands of specimens packed away for decades on end, those fossils are as good as lost. I think museums should have a timeline to get something studied. If they can't do it, the specimen should be put in the hands of a qualified pro who can get the job done in a timely manner. Some of the most important finds might be in boxes for the next 100 years. We may never know. Was it the American Museum of Natural History that has over 30 MILLION specimens (of all kinds, not just fossils)? I have reason to suspect not all of those specimens have been thoroughly examined. Call it a hunch.

"Would making the selling of fossils illegal for everybody make things easier for scientists..."

I don't think so. They can't keep up with the collections they have, so what difference would it make? As far as poachers go, they probably would become more common. When something is banned, it becomes more valuable. Given the best fossiling locations are in remote areas, poaching would become common. They could sell their finds as pre-ban. More money, no competition.

My opinion is that fossil trade actually HELPS scientific data collection by keeping them open for observation, whether it be by professionals, or Joe down the street.

[Auspex]

Museums are repositories of research collections. Many of the items therein might not be the subject of any research this year, or this decade, or even this century, but they are there (with all the pertinent data appended) for when such need might arise (and will still be there 50 years later for the next re-thinking of the subject). This is a service to science of inestimable value; a large sample-size is necessary for the scientific drawing of conclusions, and for challenges and rebuttals to those conclusions. Important discoveries have been made by diligent specialists through reexamination of research collections, and this is a major mission for any museum worthy of the name. Also, much of this material is not the sort that would make good public displays, so not having it on public display is not misuse of the resource.

[BobWill]

Of course Auspex is right, thinking long term. All the more reason to keep good records and make plans for donations when we're gone. Molly, if you haven't already, look at the thread under General Fossil Discussions labeled "You can't take it with you."

That said, our natural instincts are probably closer to Tracer's (did I really say that?) what with all the hugging and caressing our collections get.

[32fordboy]

Hmmm. Your love for fossils has reached a new level

Auspex is right, indeed...and things are working pretty well the way they are now.

[Cris]

I like Florida's system. Collectors are issued a vertebrate fossil permit to collect on state lands if they sign a form that says they'll submit an accurate report of all fossils collected before 1 year of the permit date is up. After you submit your report, a qualified paleontologist reviews it and will ask you to donate anything they feel could be scientifically important...if you donate and show yourself a responsible collector, you can be issued another permit...Once a certain amount of time is up after the submission of the report, the collector is "free to depose of the fossils in any way they see fit". In other words, all the vertebrate fossils in FL belong to the state until you fill out a report and they decide they are not important.

Win, win situation...everyone is happy. I donate on a regular basis and have made some good friends up at the local museum. These fossils we're allowed to keep would just take up valuable space in the museum collections area anyways.

[32fordboy]

Didn't Frank Garcia help pave the way for that law? That guy cracks me up. So enthusiastic.

[Paleoc]

You said that you work in a museum. Some museums have policies on their employees collecting, so you need to find out if they have one as you don't want to endanger your job.

[Wrangellian]

I like Florida's system. Collectors are issued a vertebrate fossil permit to collect on state lands if they sign a form that says they'll submit an accurate report of all fossils collected before 1 year of the permit date is up. After you submit your report, a qualified paleontologist reviews it and will ask you to donate anything they feel could be scientifically important...if you donate and show yourself a responsible collector, you can be issued another permit...Once a certain amount of time is up after the submission of the report, the collector is "free to depose of the fossils in any way they see fit". In other words, all the vertebrate fossils in FL belong to the state until you fill out a report and they decide they are not important.

Win, win situation...everyone is happy. I donate on a regular basis and have made some good friends up at the local museum. These fossils we're allowed to keep would just take up valuable space in the museum collections area anyways.

This sounds like a good system to me.

[bear-dog]

Didn't Frank Garcia help pave the way for that law? That guy cracks me up. So enthusiastic.

Yes he was among the group that brought it up,and he is a cut-up,not to mention lucky at hunting fossils and horse shoes.

[bear-dog]

I agree with Chris.Our system works for me.Also if several of the rare items are found you do get a chance to keep some nice goodies.Some of the things I donated were a first for our state,after finding a bunch of the items now everyone gets to keep the ones they find.And I still have the warm fuzzy feeling for donating those items.

[jpc]

Hi Molly-

Are you in the Collections Management class that I came down to teach a few months back?... I told the CU kids about fossil preparation one afternoon.

I work in a Geology Museum AND I collect fossils for my own fun and joy . My museum does not have any rules about this. But to keep things from even appearing to be a conflict of interest, everyone here knows about my bad habit. This is very important... you don't want to even appear to have a conflict of interest. Also we have a commercial fossil seller who teaches geology at our little community college, and is a curator of the museum. He has a lease with a rancher, and allows us to collect there every now and then. The two of us have basically the same system... we either have Museum sites or personal sites. When we are at the museum sites we collect for the museum. If I do the leg work (getting access to sites, map-reading, etc) on new sites for myself, then that site/ranch is for personal collecting. If I do the same for work, then its a museum site. That is the bottom line.

Some museums indeed will hire with a "non-conflict" line in the contract... you should go into this in your museum studies classes, but I know some of the professors (yes, friends of mine) there are not into private collecting, so they are likely to frown on this more than some folks elsewhere. Even art museums deal with this issue.

I hope this helps, if you want more details, feel free to PM me.

Nick... you're ideas about museums need a little clarification... Museums are by definition, a place that holds specimens in trust for the public for eternity, or until the country collapses. (See Iraqi history museum). The very idea of giving away fossils has become a very delicate issue in the museum world ever since some of these tales of museums throwing away stuff have surfaced. Once something is catalogued in a museum it is legally and morally very difficult to get rid of it. This does cause some problems... like running out of space; a very common problem with most museums. You're line about "when museums pack stuff a way for decades it is as good as lost" is way wrong, dude. Just cuz you don't see it, doesn't mean it is not available for research, or loan to other museums, etc. As auspex said, it may not be used next week or in the next century, but it is available for someone to do something with.

As for your point about selling fossils HELPS scientific data collecting, have a look at the Fossil ID section of this forum... loaded with orphan fossils bought with absolutely no data on them. There are some dealers these days that are very good at data, but many who just don't care, and the buyers generally don't give a hoot either.

There, that's my rant. Except for this... I like the FL system... way to go Florida.

[Terry Dactyll]

everyone collects fossils for different reasons and who are we to judge whats right and whats wrong (diagnosed god complex fossil collectors excluded) ....so as long as our actions dont jepordise the opportunies of future collectors to access the same material....theres no harm done.... I have heard the conflict of interest thing about people that work in museums as palaeontologists, but it sounds a bit stupid really...

[32fordboy]

I understand your points, JPC, and I will clarify what I meant. Something stuffed away, whether available for research or not, isn't public, though I understand the same could easily be said about most (if not all) private collections. Therefore, when somebody throws out the "it belongs to the public" argument, I have to roll my eyes unless it really is a specimen of great importance. However, a fossil examined once by professionals is better than one never examined at all.

As far as the ID section on this forum, not many important things get posted there. Our knowledge of the earth's past doesn't rely on every crinoid stem or coral section having a proper ID. Usually, if something important does arrive, the answer is, "take it to your museum". That's why our current system works-because people typically ask questions. They want to know more and that's what brings fossils into the public. I don't think enough important specimens slip through the cracks to justify changing the system.

And keep in mind the things we're talking about here are standard specimens. Oreodonts, trilobites, mammoth remains, dino teeth-the kinds of thing you see on the forum. Like it was said said earlier, the real danger is the bazillionaire collector who can afford spectacular specimens and not give a rat's butt what they mean to science.

Just to be clear, I'm not on any one side, but rather, in the middle like most of us seem to be--the thought of organizations placing themselves above us collectors kills me, though. And nobody can tell me that's not how it is (generally speaking, of course-there are just as many individual professionals who are also in the middle). We, as non-professionals, might not know how to properly examine a specimen and write a paper on it, but most avid collectors know when they need to take a specimen to somebody who can examine it. Florida's system is great, and there has been talk elsewhere about what it would take to make a similar federal law. This law would also allow for collecting on federal lands and benefit everybody: museums, collectors, and the governments. It was just talk amongst friends, though, and few people have the time to devote to such a thing, so don't expect it to go anywhere.

Bottom Line: The best thing we can do as a fossil community is just educate ourselves and make good decisions on a fossil-by-fossil basis.

That's just one person's opinion, and I know many will disagree with it and probably flame the idea, but that's okay.

P.S. For those who disagree, can I still be your friend?

Edited November 30, 2010 by 32fordboy

[Wrangellian]

As for your point about selling fossils HELPS scientific data collecting, have a look at the Fossil ID section of this forum... loaded with orphan fossils bought with absolutely no data on them. There are some dealers these days that are very good at data, but many who just don't care, and the buyers generally don't give a hoot either.

There, that's my rant. Except for this... I like the FL system... way to go Florida.

If you're referring to my orphaned specimens that I have been posting in the ID section, I may have bought them, but the seller could just as easily given them away (the price for the lot was almost a steal anyway), and I don't know whether the seller bought many of them or collected them herself on trips, but in any case, they were collected privately and the data forgotten. So that would tend to argue against allowing ANY private collecting for any reason, commercial or otherwise... but then we're back to the poaching situation and another solution is needed. Seems we all agree that the Florida system is best, and barring that, maybe there could be some kind of public outreach to educate non-professionals on the right way to go about it (the importance of keeping the data), but maybe 32fordboy is right, the present system works about as well as we can hope and most of the orphaned specimens aren't that important and if they are, the source is tracked down soon enough (as it would for any specimen if we had the manpower to put into it, I would think). And most of us who are into fossils do recognize the importance of keeping the data, and it's our responsibility to educate our fellow collectors who don't recognize this. I for one try to avoid the fossils that have no data - I'm not willing to pay anywhere near as much for them, unless I recognize them or they come in a lot like that bunch I bough from the old couple.

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

"P.S. For those who disagree, can I still be your friend?"

Sure you can for a price: 1. Directions to your three favorite, secret fossil sites. 2. I get my pick from your private collection and 3. I get one pick from any future fossil you might find.

Seriously, what is so good about Florida's law? I much prefer Alabama's fossil laws.