Possible Paleocarcharodon Orientalis Transitional Species?

[Sharktoothguy11222]

Here is a Paleocarcharodon tooth. It's a nice purple color, but it's right side cusp is damaged. It has no repair on it, and it is about 48 millimeters long.

I was wondering if someone knew if this was a transition. The reason I ask this, is that it's serrations seem to fade near the tip. Or it might be worn, but it seems to me to be a transitional. All input is welcome.

This is Northern Sharks transitional tooth.

And this is "normal" one

[Sharktoothguy11222]

Hey Anson, is there any way for me to get rid of that pesky annoying image at the bottom, I can't get rid of it

Thanks!

[fossilselachian]

Here is a Paleocarcharodon tooth. It's a nice purple color, but it's right side cusp is damaged. It has no repair on it, and it is about 48 millimeters long.

I was wondering if someone knew if this was a transition. The reason I ask this, is that it's serrations seem to fade near the tip. Or it might be worn, but it seems to me to be a transitional. All input is welcome.

For what is worth - my opinion is the lack of fully serrated crown margins on your tooth is not the result of wear. Rather it's more a function of how fully the serrations developed on this particular tooth. I have seen Moroccan Palaeocarcharodon teeth (which I assume this to be) with essentially NO serrations except for on the lateral cusps.

Of course, if one subscribes to the theory of C. apppendiculata as the ancestor of Palaeocarcharodon, the serrations had to develop somewhere along the line. As for the Moroccan Palaeos, I've never seen any definitive (lower, middle upper, etc.) Paleocene stratigraphic data assigned to such teeth. If so, maybe it would be possible to show changes in tooth morphology ove time.

Just my three cents.

[non-remanié]

I would be skeptical about the "late Cretaceous - early Paleocene" part of NS's tooth. No one pays attention or usually even knows to begin with what formation anything is coming from in Morocco. I would bet that a dealer just completely made up that assertion.

[isurus90064]

Unserrated form ... age: Early Danian from Morocco. Palaeocarcharodon orientalis (bottom two photos) from Morocco, age: Late Danian. Size: 1-1/8 inches and 1-3/8 inches. Photo and specimen by David J. Ward.

I have a couple unserrated Paleocacarcharodon from Morocco in my collection myself (but I have to find them so I can take a picture :-)). They are extremely uncommon but do show up from time to time. The serration tapering you see on your tooth is fairly typical for paleocarcharodon, but you are right in that there is a transition in this lineage.

[Gatorman]

Sorry i couldn't fix the image issue

[Sharktoothguy11222]

Sorry i couldn't fix the image issue

Its been a while , but its ok Anson. I kinda forgot about this topic . Thanks for everyone's input. So I geuss whether or not they are transitional and if this is a common pathology for this species is still up for debate. Then again, what isn't

Thanks!

[VisionXray23]

Unserrated form ... age: Early Danian from Morocco. Palaeocarcharodon orientalis (bottom two photos) from Morocco, age: Late Danian. Size: 1-1/8 inches and 1-3/8 inches. Photo and specimen by David J. Ward.

I have a couple unserrated Paleocacarcharodon from Morocco in my collection myself (but I have to find them so I can take a picture :-)). They are extremely uncommon but do show up from time to time. The serration tapering you see on your tooth is fairly typical for paleocarcharodon, but you are right in that there is a transition in this lineage.

I have been looking forever for a totally nonserrated paleocarcharodon tooth. please post! I ordered some teeth and am going to start a paleocacharodon evolution blog when they arive!

[bmorefossil]

I have been looking forever for a totally nonserrated paleocarcharodon tooth. please post! I ordered some teeth and am going to start a paleocacharodon evolution blog when they arive!

I actually have a maryland one around somewhere i think

[cowsharks]

I actually have a maryland one around somewhere i think

Steve, I've never heard of nor seen such a tooth from Maryland...a non-serrated Paleo that is. Post a pic if you can find it.

I don't believe in the transitional teeth. I've seen the non-serrated Paleo's, and the partially-serrated Paleo's from Morocco, but who says they have to be transitional? Why can't they be pathological or due to some other biological reason? What about sexual dimorphism?

Daryl.

[bmorefossil]

Steve, I've never heard of nor seen such a tooth from Maryland...a non-serrated Paleo that is. Post a pic if you can find it.

I don't believe in the transitional teeth. I've seen the non-serrated Paleo's, and the partially-serrated Paleo's from Morocco, but who says they have to be transitional? Why can't they be pathological or due to some other biological reason? What about sexual dimorphism?

Daryl.

Its just water worn but would have been funny had i posted a picture at the same time lol

[Paleoc]

Edited July 1, 2011 by Paleoc

[Paleoc]

Steve, I've never heard of nor seen such a tooth from Maryland...a non-serrated Paleo that is. Post a pic if you can find it.

I don't believe in the transitional teeth. I've seen the non-serrated Paleo's, and the partially-serrated Paleo's from Morocco, but who says they have to be transitional? Why can't they be pathological or due to some other biological reason? What about sexual dimorphism?

Daryl.

The transition from Otodus to Carcharocles and hastalis to Carcharodon have both been carefully documented. Unfortunately, the same transition in Paleocarcharodon has not been as carefully documented. Although the unserrated ones are claimed to be from the early Paleocene as opposed to the serrated ones from later in the Paleocene as in Maryland. Paleocarcharodon is a rare tooth no matter where you find it and the local researchers do not exist in Morocco where most are found. In other locations such as Maryland the continuous Paleocene sequence does not exist.

[RickNC]

Beautiful tooth whatever it is.

[siteseer]

Daryl,

This topic was discussed in the pinned thread "Finally" in Member Collections:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/472-finally/

However, the short answer is that Palaeocarcharodon evolved from an unserrated form just as Carcharodon is an Isurus (or Cosmopolitodus) hastalis with serrations. These unserrated and weakly-serrated teeth are found in the earliest Paleocene (Danian) of Morocco. After the extinctions of most large animals at the end of the Cretaceous, the field was wide open and Palaeocarcharodon became the top shark for much of the rest of the Paleocene until Otodus took over. While it's true that some of these teeth could be found in the Late Paleocene (like the occasional Late Miocene Carcharocles with the weak lateral cusplets of an early Miocene one) it's much more likely that an unserrated tooth is from the Early Paleocene.

The problem is that virtually all the commercially-available Moroccan phosphate teeth are collected with no stratigraphic data recorded and the phosphate beds (some more fossiliferous than others ) were deposited almost continuously in some spots from the Late Cretaceous to the Early Eocene so you get Squalicorax teeth in the same pile with Otodus. Some European collectors go over there and sample those beds carefully and label everything. You have to get teeth directly from them or read the technical articles on all that to get most of the story and/or talk to one of the researchers to fill in the blanks.

Anyway, check out that thread. It's long but there's interesting side topics and photos within it.

Jess

Steve, I've never heard of nor seen such a tooth from Maryland...a non-serrated Paleo that is. Post a pic if you can find it.

I don't believe in the transitional teeth. I've seen the non-serrated Paleo's, and the partially-serrated Paleo's from Morocco, but who says they have to be transitional? Why can't they be pathological or due to some other biological reason? What about sexual dimorphism?

Daryl.

Edited July 1, 2011 by siteseer

[siteseer]

You need to check out the photo in Mark Renz' book, "Megalodon: Hunting the Hunter."

I have been looking forever for a totally nonserrated paleocarcharodon tooth. please post! I ordered some teeth and am going to start a paleocacharodon evolution blog when they arive!

[siteseer]

While it's true that NS' tooth could be from someone just telling him what he wanted to hear, some dealers like Moussa Minerals are very knowledgeable about what comes from where and could get a sample from a specific bed if you ask it. Some European collectors collect their own stuff or even collect with researchers. Sometimes, I get teeth with detailed labels from a French collector who has been out there since the 70's.

I would be skeptical about the "late Cretaceous - early Paleocene" part of NS's tooth. No one pays attention or usually even knows to begin with what formation anything is coming from in Morocco. I would bet that a dealer just completely made up that assertion.