Sinopaleus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 hi everyone. i would like to know how to describe a new genus, species etc etc. would you all please shed some light for me? thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear-dog Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I would say"This is a new genus/species,etc. :lol: Bear-dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diplotomodon Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I think you mean a scientific description, so I'll give it a shot... Scientific papers require a lot of research and the costs per page---well let's not go there. If you aren't an expert it's best to hand it over to a paleontologist who know's what they're doing to describe it. You get the credit for discovering it though! (I think) What a wonderful menagerie! Who would believe that such as register lay buried in the strata? To open the leaves, to unroll the papyrus, has been an intensely interesting though difficult work, having all the excitement and marvelous development of a romance. And yet the volume is only partly read. Many a new page I fancy will yet be opened. -- Edward Hitchcock, 1858 Formerly known on the forum as Crimsonraptor @Diplotomodon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 "Describing", in the scientific sense, is establishing that a specimen is different enough from all others to warrant a new name. To do this, you start by researching every related item in the literature (and often every paper related to those). Then you examine every related specimen and compare it to yours. Then, maybe, you can start writing a paper; when you present it, it will have to withstand peer review... Remember to lift with the legs. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramon Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 To describe a new taxon you have to publish your work in a scientific review and to follow the rules of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 (edited) that's a lot of work... but ill try if i have time. thanks all!! ill try to dig up some old lit stuff related to this and maybe i can get a start... Edited April 27, 2011 by fossil maniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diplotomodon Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 that's a lot of work... but ill try if i have time. thanks all!! ill try to dig up some old lit stuff related to this and maybe i can get a start... What exactly are you trying to describe? What a wonderful menagerie! Who would believe that such as register lay buried in the strata? To open the leaves, to unroll the papyrus, has been an intensely interesting though difficult work, having all the excitement and marvelous development of a romance. And yet the volume is only partly read. Many a new page I fancy will yet be opened. -- Edward Hitchcock, 1858 Formerly known on the forum as Crimsonraptor @Diplotomodon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 What exactly are you trying to describe? that... will have to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 If it's green and round, I say it's green and round, and maybe give a diameter. If it's black and white, or..... KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Is it bigger than a bread box?? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhk Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Start by photographing the subject from every angle possible. Send (by e-mail only, do not send originals) the photos to several different museum departments in the area. Be sure to also photograph the area where the subject was found. The professionals will do all the heavy lifting as far as the descriptions go. If warranted, they may ask to see the subject in person and they will also go to the collection site to take comparison samples of surrounding stone to match the subject stone. They will date the subject and the collected stone. If you are asked to take the subject to any location be sure to make it clear you cannot leave the subject with them unattended. Before you go, have a lawyer sign a letter of ownership with the photos. Make sure you are in several photos holding the subject stone with a dated newspaper in the pic for date verification. If you are required to leave the subject stones with them, get a signed and dated receipt for any material left. The museum may take several weeks to verify the fossil and/or designate it as a new species or a species variant of a known species. At that point they will give it a name if warranted. Make sure to get all your subject stones back on the designated date then wait for the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Start by photographing the subject from every angle possible. Send (by e-mail only, do not send originals) the photos to several different museum departments in the area. Be sure to also photograph the area where the subject was found. The professionals will do all the heavy lifting as far as the descriptions go. If warranted, they may ask to see the subject in person and they will also go to the collection site to take comparison samples of surrounding stone to match the subject stone. They will date the subject and the collected stone. If you are asked to take the subject to any location be sure to make it clear you cannot leave the subject with them unattended. Before you go, have a lawyer sign a letter of ownership with the photos. Make sure you are in several photos holding the subject stone with a dated newspaper in the pic for date verification. If you are required to leave the subject stones with them, get a signed and dated receipt for any material left. The museum may take several weeks to verify the fossil and/or designate it as a new species or a species variant of a known species. At that point they will give it a name if warranted. Make sure to get all your subject stones back on the designated date then wait for the results. Should the "stone" in question be new to science, any description/naming will be worthless unless the specimen is deposited as a "type specimen" in a museum collection where it will be available to qualified researchers for examination. No description is so complete as to describe every minute feature of a specimen, rather descriptions concentrate on features that are of taxonomic significance, explaining how those features differ from other related genera/species. Often understanding of what specific features are of value changes over time as new taxa are described. For example, you just have to compare published descriptions of species from a century ago to modern descriptions; many taxa are essentially unrecognizable from the generalized and vague descriptions that sufficed at that time, and if the original specimens are unavailable for examination nobody can really know what the species really is, so the name cannot validly be applied to new specimens. Also, if the name has been published it can never be used again. Imagine if a new species is named for you, then you take the specimen back and subsequently it can't be examined by other experts. The name will be attached only to that specific specimen, and it will become a "nomen nudum", a "naked name" stripped of any and all significance except as garbage cluttering up the literature. Later if someone else finds another specimen, and agrees to deposit it in a reference collection in a museum, the species will be redescribed under a new name, and that will be the name that will be used from that point on. In short, if you are not prepared to have the specimen transferred to a proper museum collection where it will be cared for and made available to researchers, no reputable paleontologist will waste his time with the specimen or with you. That is the "result" you will be waiting for.I would also say that if you showed up at my office with a lawyer in tow, intent on treating me as a thief salivating to steal your fossils, I would respond in kind and toss you out without so much as a "good day". Why seek the expertise of a trained paleontologist of you are only going to disrespect them? They are not your servant, and they owe you nothing if you can't treat them in a professional manner. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhk Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Don, you obviosly did not read my responce with any detail. If you did you would find your arguments mute. I didn't say to show up with a lawyer. This is a step by step process and it takes time. My point is that the establishment will do the describing, you need to protect your discovery, if you find that offencive, you are not living in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 You should take a look at an issue of a peer-reviewed paleontological journal and then look for an article that describes a new genus or species. That will show you the form followed by scientists. You will also get an idea of the level of research required to describe a taxon properly (research on the site, the local geology, the organism's anatomy, the organism's closest relatives, etc.). You really need to be an expert on the group. You may need to cite numerous other publications going back perhaps 100 years or more. hi everyone. i would like to know how to describe a new genus, species etc etc. would you all please shed some light for me? thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 You may not need a lawyer before you are wronged, but the advice to keep detailed records of your find (pics of you and it, and of the site.. keep a journal, etc) is good.. I heard lately of a lady who found something new, who lent it to not exactly a professional but a respected expert amateur for identification - he then forwarded it to the professionals without informing them who really found the thing - consequently they named it after him instead of the rightful discoverer. Some of you may know who I'm talking about, but I have only heard the story from the one p.o.v. so I won't name names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Don, you obviosly did not read my responce with any detail. If you did you would find your arguments mute. I didn't say to show up with a lawyer. This is a step by step process and it takes time. My point is that the establishment will do the describing, you need to protect your discovery, if you find that offencive, you are not living in the real world. Granted you did not say to show up with a lawyer in tow, just with a letter from a lawyer; the difference is trivial. I still think your post reflects a lack of experience or understanding of the process of describing new species/genera/whatever. It is an requirement for publication in the Journal of Paleontology, Paleontology, or any other reputable peer-reviewed journal that you state the museum collection where the specimen is housed, so future researchers will know where to look for it. No paleontologist will ever describe a species based on photographs alone, they will always need to have the actual specimen in hand, and no-one will sit down and write a complete, publishable description in an hour or two while you are sitting there watching them. Often describing a new species means you must compare the new specimen with every previously described species in the same genus. To do that one arranges to borrow the type specimens from the museums where they are housed, a process that consumes months at least. Some museums do not mail out type specimens, in which case the paleontologist may have to travel to the museum (which may be on the other side of the world) to make the measurements and comparisons. Once all the comparisons are made, and the paleontologist is satisfied that your specimen is indeed new to science, she will then write up the paper and submit it to a journal, where the editors will send the manuscript to other experts in that group of fossils for review. Usually the reviewers have some questions, which will have to be addressed before the paper is accepted for publication. At that point the paper enters the "que", waiting its turn to be published. Paleontology journals are notoriously backlogged, it is not unusual for a year or more to pass between when the paper is accepted and when it is finally published.A museum can't just name a species, the name must be accompanied by a description that meets the standards of the profession and this must be published in a format, usually a peer-reviewed journal, that is available to all interested researchers. For the reasons I have described, the process takes months (rarely) to years (more common), but never "weeks". There is nothing wrong with being clear about being the collector of the specimen. The best way to achieve this is to have an ongoing, professional correspondence with the paleontologist. Stay in touch, and if they contact you respond promptly. If you have someone else bring the specimen to the attention of the experts, how are they supposed to know you collected it, that much should be obvious to anyone. Some paleontologists will include you as a coauthor, especially if you are able to contribute something to writing the paper, such as discussion of the geological context or associated fauna. If you are not a coauthor, the species may be named for you, but some taxonomists dislike naming species for people and prefer that the name reflects a distinctive characteristic of the species. In that case you should certainly be acknowledged in the paper for collecting the specimen and making it available for study. Just do not expect to get published, or have a species named for you, and then have the specimen back to show off in your cabinet. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 It appears that there's quite a bit of wild uninformed speculation going on here about what exactly publishing a descriptive paper entails, exactly. Don and Siteseer have brought up some really good points. Speaking from experience as someone who's gotten five articles published this spring (not to toot my own horn), I'll take a short break from working on my final master's thesis edits to dispense with some knowledge here. [i apologize for the length] 1) A type specimen absolutely has to be in a museum. And I'm not talking about an art museum, or an interpretive center, but paleontologists will not take published work seriously (or work on your specimen) if a specimen is not housed in a proper paleontological collection at a federal repository (say, in the united states - in China, this would be the IVPP in Beijing, or the Dalian museum, etc). If you walk into a paleontologists with an office and ask them to describe your fossil, without showing it to them (only pictures), and that the specimen will remain in your collection - well, I'll tell you what I'd do. I'd probably have a good laugh about it. If, on the other hand, a letter was produced in addition to all this signed by an attorney - I'd be pretty snarge offended as a professional. That's just rude. There are definitely a few malicious researchers out there, but they are few and far between (no matter how much they appear to have tainted the well), and 99% of problems like the one Wrangellian brought up are specifically related to miscommunications. Us paleontologists are pretty busy, and we try our best to keep up with emails an all that (believe me, we have miscommunications between paleontologists all the time; it isn't just between professionals and amateurs). 2) A new species has to be published within a peer-reviewed journal. In theory, you *can* under ICZN rules publish a new name in a newspaper or other non-peer reviewed publication, but will never be taken seriously by researchers (e.g. Archaeoraptor). There is no "new species certification" program as suggested previously - I don't know where that idea came from. A researcher who specializes in the field of study may determine after comparing the fossil with others whether or not it represents a new taxon, or if it is a referred specimen of a previously known taxon. A researcher who is unqualified to make a call on it will tell you "I'm not qualified" - but can probably direct you to a different paleontologist who can. 3) Publishing an article takes a lot of work. Usually years of work, occasionally fewer. My fastest turn-around time is 10 months from discovery to publication; the first draft of the manuscript took about a month to write with my coauthor, and then four or five rewrites we emailed back and forth, and eventual submission after three months of manuscript writing. Peer review was abnormally fast, under two months (submitted on Halloween, review completed the day after Thanksgiving). Revisions took about two months due to other projects, and then from final acceptance to publication was about three months (February to May). That being said, that was a very short paper to write, as it focused on a single bone. Another paper about to be published concerns fossils I discovered in 2005-2006; that paper went through about six complete rewrites from the bottom up until I finally submitted it last summer. Another paper (on RJB's fossil fur seals) I began writing in 2007, and submitted that in May 2010, and that came out in March 2011. That paper went through three rewrites top to bottom (then again, this and the other were my first two papers). Peer review can take a while - from under two months, to seven months in another case. If a manuscript has too many flaws (as one of mine did), it may be sent out for peer review a second time, and take several months in each case. Papers may also be held up during the printing process - I had one article in press for an entire year after it was accepted. 4) The research behind the article takes a lot of work as well, hence why it takes more than a few weeks. Some researchers prefer to do all their comparisons side by side, but that's not always possible (if you study fossil baleen whales, for example!). However, in order to convincingly establish your fossil as a new taxon, you need to compare the morphology - point by point - with other closely related taxa. This not only requires a good background in anatomy, but also a knowledge of morphological variation within the group, and the morphology of various relatives. I wouldn't go publish a paper on a new dinosaur because, quite frankly, I don't know diddly squat about their anatomy (at least, not enough to publish on them). Any way, if I haven't covered something specific, just ask. I sorta lost my train of thought there. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Don, I believe I agree with most everything you have said. Additionally, there are a few points I would like to amplify. In naming a new specie the author of the paper describing the new specie may honor a request of the finder to name the fossil after them. Be aware though that most authors describing a new specie perfer to give the specie a name that reflects the geographical location of where the fossil was found i.e. Lopha travisana after Travis County, Texas, or a morphological feature of the fossil i.e. Distorsio septemdentata for the seven teeth in the outer lip of the aperature of the snail, or the geological horizon where the fossil was found i.e. Scycospira eocensis, or in honor of a fellow researcher for previous contributions i.e. Pholadomya harrisi, a clam named for G.D. Harris, an early 20th century Paleontologist. Also, If you find what you believe is a new specie just taking it to a museum or University may not get it published. The new specie must find its way into the hands of a paleontologist researcher who is interested and/or has the time for the type fossil or origin of the fossil you have found. Otherwise it will sit on a shelf gathering dust until someone takes an interest. JKFoam The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 sounds like "the system" is designed to thwart any and all attempts by errant jesters to do taxonomical "drive-bys" on stuff they gather from the low-lying areas they frequent. how inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinopaleus Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Don, I believe I agree with most everything you have said. Additionally, there are a few points I would like to amplify. In naming a new specie the author of the paper describing the new specie may honor a request of the finder to name the fossil after them. Be aware though that most authors describing a new specie perfer to give the specie a name that reflects the geographical location of where the fossil was found i.e. Lopha travisana after Travis County, Texas, or a morphological feature of the fossil i.e. Distorsio septemdentata for the seven teeth in the outer lip of the aperature of the snail, or the geological horizon where the fossil was found i.e. Scycospira eocensis, or in honor of a fellow researcher for previous contributions i.e. Pholadomya harrisi, a clam named for G.D. Harris, an early 20th century Paleontologist. Also, If you find what you believe is a new specie just taking it to a museum or University may not get it published. The new specie must find its way into the hands of a paleontologist researcher who is interested and/or has the time for the type fossil or origin of the fossil you have found. Otherwise it will sit on a shelf gathering dust until someone takes an interest. JKFoam lol, i know a few things about describing, just didn't know it takes so long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I will say it's good to have such experts on this forum, there's always more to learn about such things as the scientific process.. I would suggest being a member of your local Paleontology society/club where you can interact with the experts is a good step toward getting your discovery described, if it is a new discovery. I'd be happy just to have my name mentioned in a journal as a discoverer (or specimen contributor), if not my name on a species, even if it requires I donate my specimen to the Museum. I've got a number of things I can't identify so that day may come yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 sounds like "the system" is designed to thwart any and all attempts by errant jesters to do taxonomical "drive-bys" on stuff they gather from the low-lying areas they frequent. how inconvenient. Where would they find a panel of peers??? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Where would they find a panel of peers??? i don't know! how did gary larson get a biting louse found only on owls named after him?!?! seems like i could get some fossil bison louse named after me. is that too much to ask?! don't worry about it - i got an idea a little while earlier. i'm going to find some undescribed fossils on some for-sale land that's an undescribed formation, and then i'm going to buy the land, start a town on it, name the town "tracerville", get a geologist to discover us by offering free beer in a geologists' newsletter, have the geologist name the formation after the town, and then get some paleo guys to discover the fossils in the formation named after the town, and then get them to name the fossils after the formation. it'll all work out somehow. if nothing else, i'm gonna try to get some grant money for the town to study something. haven't decided what yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel59 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 i don't know! how did gary larson get a biting louse found only on owls named after him?!?! seems like i could get some fossil bison louse named after me. is that too much to ask?! don't worry about it - i got an idea a little while earlier. i'm going to find some undescribed fossils on some for-sale land that's an undescribed formation, and then i'm going to buy the land, start a town on it, name the town "tracerville", get a geologist to discover us by offering free beer in a geologists' newsletter, have the geologist name the formation after the town, and then get some paleo guys to discover the fossils in the formation named after the town, and then get them to name the fossils after the formation. it'll all work out somehow. if nothing else, i'm gonna try to get some grant money for the town to study something. haven't decided what yet. And all the towns citizens must be able to speak tracer lingo if that is at all possible. :) I will be the town sheriff Tracer or whatever other than sanitation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Bobby has again described things very well. And as a museum professional, if somoene shows up with a fossil in tow and a lawyer in tow behind it, I would march the whole lot down to our museum's lawyer and have the person call me when they get sick of lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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