jbridered Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Found these teeth in a shell midden where i find Perdiz(1000-500 B.P.) arrowheads. Would like to know anyones ideas on the teeth type? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The carnassial tooth appears to be canid -- a dog or a coyote in all likelihood. Compare with the coyote teeth here: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/gallery/image/4982-coyote-carnassials/ http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) In my opinion, unlikely to be coyote. Don't think they inhabited Louisiana during that time period. Red Wolf or dog would seem more likely. Brent Ashcraft Edited January 4, 2012 by ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 red wolves are believed by some to be hybrids involving coyotes and grey wolves. coyotes get around. no idea if they're tasty, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 no idea if they're tasty, though. Several years ago I read a book on the Donner Party. One of their would be rescuers also got trapped in the snow but had animal traps with him. He was able to trap fox and coyotes. He found the fox to be edible but the coyotes tasted too foul to eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 In my opinion, unlikely to be coyote. Don't think they inhabited Louisiana during that time period. Red Wolf or dog would seem more likely. Brent Ashcraft Red wolf (Canis rufus) is a valid possibility. A red wolf tooth would be a little more massive than a coyote's. Coyotes were widespread and common in the Late Pleistocene (Alaska to Mexico to PA to FL), though I don't know about the Holocene of Louisiana. The Late Pleistocene Avery Island Fauna included the typical SE megafaunal elements, and I assume that fauna included coyotes. In Florida, my guess is that dogs are the most common canid to be found in a midden. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Red wolf (Canis rufus) is a valid possibility. A red wolf tooth would be a little more massive than a coyote's. Coyotes were widespread and common in the Late Pleistocene (Alaska to Mexico to PA to FL), though I don't know about the Holocene of Louisiana. The Late Pleistocene Avery Island Fauna included the typical SE megafaunal elements, and I assume that fauna included coyotes. In Florida, my guess is that dogs are the most common canid to be found in a midden. I agree with the dog in the midden. Coyotes were not found outside of their prairie habitat until the wolves (gray and red) were removed. They did not reach Missouri until the 1960's, and have only spread through the east coast in the last couple of decades. Fossil remains of coyotes are probably the result of the hypsithermal dryng event that moved the priaire significantly east and southward through this region, which lasted from some 10,000 years ago to around 5,000 years ago, depending on who you are talking to and where you are talking about. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 On an ecological side bar. Where coyotes have become common, red fox populations have plummeted. Coyotes kill them on sight. In areas where wolves have been reintroduced, either naturally or by man, the coyote numbers have plummeted, and the red fox populations have recovered. It seems that wolves dislike coyotes, but don't bother with the much smaller red fox. Gray fox are largely unaffected as they climb trees very well, and thus elude old "yellow eyes" Canis latrans, the coyote. Another interesting piece to this ecological puzzle is whether red fox are even native to North America. When Europeans migrated to the colonies, they tried to hunt the native fox with their hounds, but they would scurry up trees, ending the chase prematurely. The English then brought in red fox from their homeland, and released them into the wild. Ecology is a fascinating hobby. Paleoecology even more so. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Several years ago I read a book on the Donner Party. One of their would be rescuers also got trapped in the snow but had animal traps with him. He was able to trap fox and coyotes. He found the fox to be edible but the coyotes tasted too foul to eat. I used to do quite a bit of trapping, and would maintin a "gut pile" of carcasses. Coyotes were hardly ever eaten, although occasionally an intrepid possum would chew on one. The one animal that was NEVER touched was an otter. Their remains reek of rotten fish, and even fresh, they would cause me to gag. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Another interesting piece to this ecological puzzle is whether red fox are even native to North America. When Europeans migrated to the colonies, they tried to hunt the native fox with their hounds, but they would scurry up trees, ending the chase prematurely.... The English then brought in red fox from their homeland, and released them into the wild. The introduction of the red fox led to the decline (and localized extirpation) of the native grey foxes. This usually comes as a surprising revelation to nature lovers... "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricFlorida Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 These are the correct size for Indian dog. The time period is also correct for Indian dog, so I would lean in that direction. www.PrehistoricFlorida.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THobern Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 ... He found the fox to be edible but the coyotes tasted too foul to eat. I'd imagine anything that carnivorous would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I'd imagine anything that carnivorous would. Actually, cat is supposed to be quite tasty. I think it is probably more a function of glands and oil produced by the carnivore. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The introduction of the red fox led to the decline (and localized extirpation) of the native grey foxes. This usually comes as a surprising revelation to nature lovers... I had not heard that conclucsion. I generally think of them partitioning off the resource. Gray fox are critters of the brush, while reds prefer more open country. Grays are also much more pugnacious then red fox, and less cautious. Could this be a case where the changing landscape (introduction of farm fields) led to the red fox becoming more numerous, but selecting against the gray? Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Certainly habitat succession has played a large roll, but the East has more woodlots (and less "old field") now that it did 60 years ago, and the Grey Fox is still marginalized and declining. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Certainly habitat succession has played a large roll, but the East has more woodlots (and less "old field") now that it did 60 years ago, and the Grey Fox is still marginalized and declining. Interesting, based on experience around here, I would characterize the gray as the most common predator in the wooded portion of Missouri. They are also the least seen. Based my observations on numbers caught, but I was never a big time fox trapper, so my observations could be skewed. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbridered Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 One of the bone crushing dogs from Miocene Osteoborus sp. The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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