Question About Id's And Resources, Differences Found

[sixgill pete]

I posted a shell in the ID section. The replies gave a different ID for one of the shells, not unexpected; I love the debates over an ID sometimes as much as getting it. But when researching both names on my own, they appear to be the same shell. So my questions are, which one is it, is it the same and if so why two different scientific names. I know sometimes there are local variations to things that get different names. But you can usually see the small difference. I see no difference in the two. Here is my shell.

It has bee ID, as Trivia floridana by a couple of members and this link .. http://gafossil.awardspace.com/fossilsites/leecreek/leecreek/lcothergastropoda/lctrivialindaelarge.htm

and as Niveria suffusa by a mamber and this link ... http://ncfossilclub.org/~fossil/slideshow_gallery/30 (scroll down, top row second from right)

to me, they look the same. What do all of you think.

[Tarheel59]

Don and yet still I found a couple more possiblities with the name one is Niveria Brasilica (click on Nivea Triivia) and Niveria (niveria) Nix (click on Nivea Cypraea). The link is http://www.gastropods.com/Taxon_pages/Species_Index_Ni.shtml So maybe lots of look alikes out there or all the same shell.. Jeff/Tarheel

[RickNC]

Differences between two closely related species can be very minute.

[Bullsnake]

Are these extant, or extinct? I'm asking because I wondered if the difference may be in the animal itself, besides just the shell.

[Tarheel59]

Don here are my examples from a FL parking lot, Probally from a mine somewhere in FL.. Are they twins to yours??? Hope to hear from some more invert people so we can get names on them.. Jeff/Tarheel

[Wrangellian]

I haven't read the papers/links but is there any indication that one name might have been replaced by a newer one? If not, I would assume they were the same and go with the older name.

[erose]

Subtle differences in species require subtle observations. Sometimes I have to get out the dictionary or refer to various glossaries to understand the fine points of the fossil descriptions. But it does look like you are zeroing in on at least one genus over the other.

[mikecable]

• Synonyms
  
• 
  
• Trivia floridana was named by Olsson and Harbison (1953). It is a 3D body fossil.
  It was synonymized subjectively with Niveria suffusa by Hendy et al. (2008).
  

Synonymy list

Year Name Author

1827Cypraea suffusa Gray pp. 370-371

1917Trivia suffusa Maury p. 117

1939Pusula (Niveria) suffusa Schilder p. 10

1953Trivia floridana Olsson and Harbison

1971Trivia suffusa Jung p. 180

2008Niveria suffusa Hendy et al.

from this source

http://paleodb.org/c...&is_real_user=1

Edited March 27, 2012 by mikecable

[Coco]

Hi,

I don't know for these ones, but if you look at French alive Trivia, we have in Atlantic Trivia monacha and Trivia arctica. The shell of the first one has 3 colored points, and shell of Trivia arctica is plain colour (without colored points). If these two species lose the color of their shell, we cannot make any more the difference between both species !

Coco

[Wrangellian]

That sounds like such a minor distinction between the 2 species.. is it for sure that these are 2 species that don't interbreed, or just 2 varieties? If there is no apparent difference (even a subtle difference) between 2 fossils, especially ones from the same location/horizon, I'm not sue what qualifies them as 2 species, considering how much variation there can be within a species! Guess that's why I'm not a professional..

[ashcraft]

That sounds like such a minor distinction between the 2 species.. is it for sure that these are 2 species that don't interbreed, or just 2 varieties? If there is no apparent difference (even a subtle difference) between 2 fossils, especially ones from the same location/horizon, I'm not sue what qualifies them as 2 species, considering how much variation there can be within a species! Guess that's why I'm not a professional..

That is the whole problem with counting species from a geologic perspective. Two extant species that are clearly different, such as the polar bear and the grizzly, in both habitat and appearance, become much less likely to be differentiated to different species if they are fossilized. Don't even get me started on shark's teeth.

Brent Ashcraft

[erose]

We have to remember that as much as we all cleave to these ideas of "genus" & "species" all of taxonomy is just a human construct we place on the natural world (which doesn't give two shakes) and is always a subjective approximation of reality. In other words there is still a great deal of stuff we don't know snarge about.

Edited March 28, 2012 by erose

[sixgill pete]

In other words there is still a great deal of stuff we don't know snarge about.

I give that a great big amen!!!

[sixgill pete]

• Synonyms
  
• 
  
• Trivia floridana was named by Olsson and Harbison (1953). It is a 3D body fossil.
  It was synonymized subjectively with Niveria suffusa by Hendy et al. (2008).
  

Synonymy list

Year Name Author

1827Cypraea suffusa Gray pp. 370-371

1917Trivia suffusa Maury p. 117

1939Pusula (Niveria) suffusa Schilder p. 10

1953Trivia floridana Olsson and Harbison

1971Trivia suffusa Jung p. 180

2008Niveria suffusa Hendy et al.

from this source

http://paleodb.org/c...&is_real_user=1

thanks mike. i guess this time i was actually correct, they are the same. from this information i will probably use the newest name Niveria suffusa.

[MikeR]

Ah! A Taxonomic battle!

In "L. W. Ward and B.W. Blackwelder. 1987. Late Pliocene and Early Pleistocene Mollusca from the James City and Chowan River Formations at Lee Creek Mine. Smithsonian Contributions to Paleobiology 61:113-283" the authors describe Trivia floridana as the species of Triviidae that occurs at LCM. I also happen to have a copy of Olsson and Harbinson, 1953 in which they describe differences between Trivia (now Niveria) suffusa and Trivia (perhaps Niveria) floridana as "From suffusa, this species (floridana) differs by its wider base, stronger sculpture of which, the principal ribs, remain simple and not nodulose."

Of suffusa they write "Shell similar to Trivia pediculus Linne but smaller and narrower..." Trivia pediculus (Linne, 1758) is what Jeff Tarheel pictures above from a Florida parking lot (either Upper Pliocene Tamiami or Lower Pleistocene Caloosahatchee Formation).

I also have a sizeable modern shell collection to go along with my 10000+ (and growing) collection of primarily molluscan fossils. I do not have N. suffusa but a google search shows suffusa to have nodulose ribs and fewer in number than those of floridana. Also world record size of recent suffusa is 12 mm while floridana in my collection are up to 17mm.

As part of the Center for Tropical Paleoecology and Archeology Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, Dr. Hendry's resume is impressive (http://www.stri.si.e...stin_hendy.html), however the Paleobiology Database which sites his floridana synonym of suffusa also states that the work is "unpublished" and "stated without evidence". Based on these factors, I still call your shell Trivia floridana.

Mike

Edited March 28, 2012 by MikeR