Paleo Societies Policy / Selling Fossils

[Wrangellian]

Without getting into a debate on the topic, I'm curious what is the policy on selling fossils in the various Paleo societies around the continent and maybe elsewhere (not the states/provinces' legislation, just the societies). Here in BC generally the policy is you get kicked out if you're caught doing it - at least with BC fossils. I understand other places like in many of the US groups they encourage you to donate to museums (as do the BC soc's) but if the museum rejects it you're free to sell it. Or is that just the legislation in certain states?

There has been some discussion in other threads but I wonder if anyone has done a general survey on this or otherwise have a knowledge source, or else maybe people could tell me what their local society says and we can compile it here? I just want to do the survey, not debate the topic for now. Thanks in advance!

Edited July 2, 2012 by Wrangellian

[Wendell Ricketts]

After reading Craig Child's Finders Keepers this summer, I've been thinking seriously about writing an article on this topic, perhaps for Fossil News or some other publication. Thanks for the info about BC's policy - you wouldn't be able to point me toward a specific, written policy would you?

In partial response to your question: I've belonged to fossil clubs in Ohio, Tennessee, California, North Carolina, and Florida. None of them even mentioned selling fossils and, judging from the fact that most of them advertise fossil shows and sales in their newsletters, my guess would be that selling is, instead, actively encouraged. And there, respecting your wish not to get a debate rolling, I'll say no more!

Best,

W.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Wendell Ricketts

[Jocky]

The only fossil club (sort of) in Qatar actively discourages members from even picking up fossils. Fossil hunting is referred to as Fossil Viewing.

So selling fossils must be on the "environmental vandalism" list.

For the record I totally disagree with the policy.

And here are a few to prove it!

CHEERS

Edited July 2, 2012 by Jocky

[Wendell Ricketts]

Ah, if that's the issue (collecting vs. selling), the same goes in Italy, where I lived for 5 years. It is illegal to collect fossils (and, thus, to sell them), so the few fossil groups that exist live a strange sort of clandestine existence where no one can ask openly, "Where can I go to collect fossils?" Actually, doing so gets you knocked off the Italian version of this forum. You must say, "I'd be interested in finding a place where I can study fossils in situ," and then maybe you get some help. Though, if nobody knows you, they might well suspect you of being a spy. That said, through a combination of dogged persistence and utter ignorance of the law, I made a number of really wonderful acquaintances via Italian fossil groups who remain friends today. If you asked me their names, though, I would have to plead the 5th.....

[squalicorax]

The paleontology club at my university I run has a strict code not to sell fossils unless they are commonly found specimens. For example a Pseudoatrypa from Rockford Iowa is extremely common. The point of our club is to promote education by finding specimens, taxonomically organizing them and sharing them with the university for teaching.

[erose]

All the Paleo Societies I have belonged to did not have a policy one way or the other. Our memberships were made up of all sorts of folks including commercial dealers, academics, hobbyists and all the flavors in between. Having a black or white policy would alienate one group or the other.

If we did anything at all it was to encourage members to donate to museums or universities if they found something important and to discourage members from selling fossils collected off of public land or locations were we were able to hunt by permission of a landowner or operator. In addition we stressed the importance of good collecting behavior: no trespassing, no littering, leave a site better than when you arrived, etc.

Attached is the Paleontological Society of Austin's Code of Conduct.

codeofconduct.pdf

Edited July 2, 2012 by erose

[Coco]

In France, the law doesn't forbid to sell fossils and minerals. On the other hand, we can't collect concretions of caves (stalactites and stalagmites) because they are protected. We can't either to collect cut stones (artefacts) and fossils found in caves old after the appearance of the man (because in that case, they aren't considered as fossils, but as archaeological objects - in touch with the life of the man). If you can't collect them, you can't sell them either.

Most of the clubs disadvise the sale of minerals and fossils, simply because the members of clubs who sell their finds often have an inadequate behavior in hunting with the other members.

Coco

Edited July 2, 2012 by Coco

[Vordigern]

Ive only been a member of my Society for 6 months but I think I have a good handle on their policy, fossils can be sold but important or rare finds are encouraged to be donated. I personally have no problem with dontating something rare/important so it is preserved for study.

[BobWill]

The Rules of Conduct in the Dallas society are the same as Erose described for Austin with the addition of a total ban of selling or buying "scientifically significant fossils" unless it brings them into a public trust, rather than just discouraging the practice.

Edited July 3, 2012 by BobWill

[Missourian]

In our (erstwhile) Kansas City club, buying, selling and trading were fairly routine and unofficial. When starting out collecting, I acquired a few pieces from another member to 'seed' my collection. Also, members donated fossils for club auctions. I picked up a few more that way as well.

Regarding rare and scientifically valuable fossils, finding any is almost unheard of. They are found mostly at a small handful of protected sites (eg. Hamilton, Garnett) or at places that the professionals don't seem to care much about (eg. Knob Noster).

[Jocky]

I would like to add that I have donated several fossils to various museums and educational establishments and gave a few presentations to my daughters school in UK and Qatar. None of these events would be possible if I observed the policy to not pick up fossils.

There is nothing like seeing a little face light up when they realise they are holding a shark tooth that is millions of years old and was found in the middle of a desert.

There is country legislation outlawing the collection of Desert Roses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_rose_%28crystal%29

CHEERS

[erose]

I was looking for a policy or rules of conduct statement for two other clubs I have belonged to and was surprised to not find anything. I know when I was with the New York Paleo Society we discussed these things often. And I ran field trips and made sure everyone knew what was expected of them. The other one was the Dry Dredgers who have a long history of working closely with paleontologists. I suspect they both have something somewhere in writing but just not on the web pages.

[FossilDAWG]

Here is a link to the Birmingham Paleontological Society code of ethics. Selling fossils is not explicitly forbidden, but there is a line about " BPS members will not use their affiliation with the BPS for personal profit or gain."

The club has had problems with commercial collectors in the past, and now is pretty guarded against admitting such members. One commercial collector joined, went on many field trips, then went and negotiated exclusive access to the better sites (whole crinoids, etc) with the land owners. The club found out when they started to be denied access to sites they had visited for years (one visit/year or so, to conserve the fossils and not overcollect), and the land owners said the reason was they had signed a contract with the commercial collector and he was paying them to keep everyone else out. Other collectors who were known to sell fossils proved unable to resist the temptation to return to productive sites after the club trip, and in a couple of cases to get there the week before a club trip to grab the good stuff, although this is a violation of the club code of ethics. We also lost access to some sites because the landowner caught club members trespassing outside of the organized trips. Although any collector might be tempted to trespass to get to a productive site, the financial aspect seems to provide an extra level of temptation. These particular landowners took the position that allowing the club in just advertised the site and increased the risk of trespassers and vandalism (leaving garbage, not filling in holes), so the safest position was just to say no to everyone.

That was the BPS's experience, others may have had a different experience.

Don

Edited July 3, 2012 by FossilDAWG

[Wrangellian]

Thanks everyone, I can see how each club's/society's experiences would affect their policies differently. It seems like every group has a similar code of ethics vz respecting private property etc. but they vary so much in how they approach selling.

The BCPA doesn't seem to make a distinction between commercial sellers and individuals who might simply want to sell off some 'spares' (and what's more, a certain member told me that not only does selling have "no place in the science of paleontology", but also trading is a "grey area"!)... I guess the issues are complicated and they find it easiest to just have a blanket ban. Maybe they got advice from the vert paleontologists and archeologists!....

[Scylla]

has the debate part started yet?

[Jocky]

The ...ologists are like any other professional body protecting their own interests and income from amateur's like me so any advice from them is coloured by this. But I have a place in the great scheme of things as I am the one hunting round deserts at 4am finding the areas and specimens that they pontificate about.

I dont buy or sell fossils and my collection is made up of finds made personally by me.

Responsible fossil collecting is in the eye of the beholder but to me it can be summed up as follows:

• only take home specimens that add or improve the collection
  
• take careful notes of locations
  
• important specimens get notified to authorities
  
• share your passion
  

That is just my take.

CHEERS

Edited July 4, 2012 by Jocky

[Wrangellian]

has the debate part started yet?

I guess I can't help my slant showing thru but maybe we should start the debate in another thread! I just wanted to get a sense of how my local society/BC Paleo Alliance compared to other societies.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Wrangellian

[Missourian]

One commercial collector joined, went on many field trips, then went and negotiated exclusive access to the better sites (whole crinoids, etc) with the land owners. The club found out when they started to be denied access to sites they had visited for years (one visit/year or so, to conserve the fossils and not overcollect), and the land owners said the reason was they had signed a contract with the commercial collector and he was paying them to keep everyone else out.

I'm getting infuriated just thinking about that.

[Scylla]

So I'll stop buying fossils when profesional paleontologists agree to write papers for free, and take no salary support from grants, etc. I think that if fossils are to be elevated above the dirty world of commerce then no one should make a profit from them. This ensures that financial interests do not sully anyone's judgement when dealing with the fossil record. Many of the first paleontologists were amatures and this great tradition should be re-instated.

As far as selling goes, I can't seem to part with any.

But if fossils were really so valuable, why do we let all these quarries crush fossils to gravel for road construction, etc? Look at how many prime fossil sites are commecial quarries that do very little to preserve the fossils except to let a few of us in once or twice a year to salivate at their table scraps. We can utterly destroy vast swaths of Florida in the name of phosphate proffits, but it is somehow immoral to sell shark teeth? Get real. Italy? You know how many ammonites you can find in Italian marbles cut up for floor tiles? Qatar? They sell more fossil than most, just as a liquid form.

This pro vs amature mentality is not productive though. If us amatures did not exist, neither then would the pros. They depend on our fortuitous finds for many of their "discoveries" and we need their expertise to figure out which ones are real "discoveries" Furthermore, if I as a young child didn't collect, maybe I would have spent more time collecting stamps instead, or coins, or baseball cards. That would be less visits to museums (less$) more protest at taxpayer support for paleontology (less$) less general interest within society (less significance). When any academic endeaver only speaks to itself and neglects the society at large, it becomes irrelevant and dies. How many active professional paleontologists never owned a fossil as kids? Like what are the percentages?

A few pro's lose sight of this and treat us as the unwashed masses. Some amature collectors go over to the dark side and become comercial collectors. But even comercial collectors can be responsible, even integral members of the paleontological community. The risk is that greed will cause someone to destroy a fossil or a site for short term profit (like that Mongolian tyranosaur) but this risk is worth taking to keep this hobby (ok addiction) going.

Some fossils should be off limits because they are rare and the loss of scientific value would be too great. But an outright ban on selling or collecting is as ridiculous as outlawing wheels to prevent speeding

Just my 2 cents.

[Wrangellian]

I'm getting infuriated just thinking about that.

I know, that infuriates me too, I wish there were some way to prevent that but I'm not sure what it is... At the same time I have quit the society because I just can't abide by such a heavy-handed un-nuanced(?) policy as theirs, which doesn't make distinctions or exceptions. If someone in the Soc. can make the decision to kick somebody out for doing something like cleaning out a site or negotiating exclusive access (as they should), then they can also make the decision to overlook when someone like myself sells off a few spares, as long as I don't sell the ones that should be in a museum.

There I said it, happy??

I actually could care less what policy they set for themselves (though I think they're shooting themselves in the foot when their stance makes people like me quit), but what worries me is they seem to be trying to influence provincial policy to enact a fee for a license to collect commercially - by the wording it sounds like there is no distinction made between 'commercial' and 'casual' sellers as I say above. If they institute the fee I hope it isn't too much otherwise it will not be worthwhile for any but the most successful/active dealers to get one.

Still interested in finding out if any other Paleo societies have the same policy vs the ones that are more forgiving.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Wrangellian

[fossisle]

So what are you getting from this Society Wrangellian?

I am sure you can get info and support for your hobby in other ways.

Maybe you should start your own club or group who better meet your goals.

[erose]

Wrangellian,

I took a look at the BCPA web site. What is not clear at all is their legal status to actually regulate. In the states most of our clubs are considered non-profit entities and have no "official capacity". The BCPA web site reads like something very official. But of course the biggest difference is that Canada has much more stringent laws regarding fossils than the US.

I would also be interested in who founded the association. Was it academics or amateurs? For example the Society of Vertebrate Paleontologists has in years past taken a very hard stance against collecting of any sort almost to the point of advocating for restrictions even on private land. Of course here in the good old USofA that #*&% don't fly. The best they have been able to do is try and put yet more restrictions on who can get permits to work government owned land.

The only personal experience with anyone trying to ban the sale of fossils via a club was in New York where the NYPS had to move the annual holiday party and auction out of the regular meeting hall at the American Museum of Natural History. The museum at that time (maybe a dozen-plus years ago?) did not approve of the sale of fossils and our auction was not appreciated. I do not not know the details, and I believe it was only a subtle nudge, but the club moved the party to a different venue. Since that time the AMNH has loosened up on the issue and now you can buy fossils in the gift shop.

Unfortunately all of these restrictions are all too often driven by anecdotal tales. Horror stories about lost sites, devious collectors, club officers taking advantage, poaching on government land are in truth the exception, not the rule.

I think if all of our groups keep to our goals of educating the public we do more to protect fossils and the study of paleontology than any hard and fast rules about NOT selling fossils.

Edited July 4, 2012 by erose

[Auspex]

...I think if all of our groups keep to our goals of educating the public we do more to protect fossils and the study of paleontology than any hard and fast rules about NOT selling fossils.

Bingo.

[Wrangellian]

So what are you getting from this Society Wrangellian?

I am sure you can get info and support for your hobby in other ways.

Maybe you should start your own club or group who better meet your goals.

I asked myself that earlier in the year. I'm no longer a member. After finally getting some of my fossils back from them the other day (another long story) I have nothing more to do with them. I did enjoy the newsletter and the speakers and the field trips but the associated stress was not worth it.

erose, I agree completely.

The BCPA was supposedly founded by pros and amateurs to facilitate interaction between the two types and, like any other society, to 'promote the science of paleontology', but it seems like the pros and those who kowtow to them have held sway. I'm not sure they are claiming any legal status but they have positioned themselves as the group that the gov't should/will consult when any fossil-related regulations are drafted. There was a 'fossil management framework' drawn up and opinions were solicited, but I missed the boat as my opinions hadn't really crystallized before the end of the consultation period.

I have been thinking about starting an amateur club here on the Island if there is enough interest, or else just joining one of the rockhound clubs again like I did years ago. They were never so uptight and always easygoing, not politically active

Edited July 5, 2012 by Wrangellian

[Auspex]

...I think if all of our groups keep to our goals of educating the public we do more to protect fossils and the study of paleontology than any hard and fast rules about NOT selling fossils.

Bingo.

...erose, I agree completely.

This is part of the Forum's philosophical raison d'être, and every member is an ambassador to the world.