Paleo Societies Policy / Selling Fossils

[BobWill]

Erose has it right completely. Dallas also has auctions with common fossils for sale for fundraising. This spurs interest in the science. Important finds by members are given much praise when it's done right. We also moved our meetings out of the city museum but into a college geology building so it was not over any issues I know of.

[Jocky]

.......... They were never so uptight and always easygoing, not politically active

Hit the nail on the head. I left the local society for the same reasons. I am an easy going person and I dont like black and white rules as they never work.

Maybe we should start a fossil club with chapters in Vancouver and Qatar.

CHEERS

[Wrangellian]

If it's in Vancouver I won't be able to attend LOL But yes, it's interesting how many of the other societies are softer on this issue than the BCPA, while perhaps still being wary of the atypical plunder-and-sell types. I'm a little jealous of you who are members of those. And I applaud the Forum for its inclusiveness and reluctance to adopt any such controversial rules that would exclude half the fossil-collecting world, and allowing us to debate the issues among ourselves.

Museums understandably will try to discourage people selling fossils because they want to receive them as donations, and I guess the BCPA (or at least the Victoria PS) is influenced in this regard by the Royal BC Museum with which it has a close relationship. But I don't think the two things can't coexist - as long as fossil collectors are taught to care about the science and to donate the important ones, they will do the right thing. I wouldn't want to sell a fossil that might get my name into print as the discoverer of something new, but of course this requires the cooperation of the pros which is another issue that I think has been discussed in other threads!

Again I've gone on more than I intended to..

Edited July 5, 2012 by Wrangellian

[Multicusp]

I believe that certain fossils of extreme rarity should be reserved for museums and such, however I do sell fossils and deal with many private collectors, web dealers, etc. If you are so finacially secure that you can afford to travel the globe on collecting tours then the sale of fossils is not needed to support your expenses, I, on the other hand, must make a little return on what I spend to go collecting and maintain a regular collecting schedule. I have so many kinds of teeth and other marine fossils that it would be almost a crime not to sell some to people who may not have a certain item that I have in bulk.

[erose]

I have a problem with fossils being collected, or should I say harvested, from public sites specifically for sale. And by public I mean sites were amateurs have been going for years such as stream beds, road cuts or the odd private property that is considered open, like St Clair. It is one thing to thin out your collection and dispose of the excess in one way or another but to collect those sites specifically to gather fossils for sale is IMHO not right. Luckily this is not a common problem.

[FossilDAWG]

In some ways it seems to me a difficult balance to make, though I think it should be possible. Certainly trading should not be controversial. Someone can add a lot to their collection by trading (or even selling) things that they commonly find for specimens that other collectors find common in the localities available to them. No-one is likely to trade away specimens that are especially rare, uniquely well preserved, or new to science. However, once it becomes a matter of a persons livelihood the balance may shift. Specimens that are especially rare or well preserved are especially valuable, and if people have to weigh an abstract notion such as the "good of science" or "advancement of knowledge" against being able to pay the rent or feed your family you can see why the abstract notions of "societal good" often lose. Some countries seek to forestall the need to even make a choice by regulating fossil sales, but they usually end up casing too wide a net by anyone's measure. Tons of Santana Formation fish are now left to erode in the field, instead of providing revenue for locals and enjoyment for collectors worldwide. I see posts here of wonderful mammoth teeth pulled from Florida rivers; these are highly desirable but are of almost no scientific importance, as they are not "in situ" and can provide no new information (plus, museum shelves are already stuffed with specimens), so it makes perfect sense to allow sale of these specimens. On the other hand, I've seen posts here in FF from people who talk of finding several Megalodon teeth on one trip, then express anger that they "missed one" when they run into another collector who also found a decent specimen. Although that might just be an excess of "competitive spirit" (and we all know fossil collectors who may be described as "obsessive"), when I see that those people also have an eBay store or other sales outlet, I wonder if they see other collectors good luck as money out of their pocket. Personally, I always feel happy for a collector who has found something exceptional; although I'll admit to some jealousy if it's a species I've been looking for for my own collection, and I might kick myself if I had walked past the specimen and failed to see it, I'd never be angry that someone else found something good.

Anyway, in general I don't object to fossil sales, but I think a strong code of ethics should apply, where legitimately scientifically valuable specimens are preserved for research. This is best achieved by a productive relationship between academics and amateurs/professional collectors, so the amateurs/professional collectors can be the eyes on the ground, as there will never be enough professional paleontologists to prospect every outcrop frequently enough to harvest every important specimen before entropy does its job. The system should function as a symbiosis, where paleontologists benefit from an army of trained eyes, and amateurs/commercial collectors benefit from relaxed legal restrictions, access to sites, and access to state-of-the-art information. I have known paleontologists who epitomized this attitude (Tom Bolton and Murray Copeland at the GSC for example), and I'm aware of others who seem to be enraged by every collector who finds a nice Flexicalymene (I won't name names for this side). I know Tom got a lot of papers published based on material or localities that were found by amateurs, because he was a joy to work with (he's passed on now unfortunately), and I think the folks on the other side of the fence lost out because of their hostility. However, none of those folks had to deal with people poaching million-dollar dinosaurs from museum sites, and that's the kind of thing that (unfortunately) motivates legislators to write laws.

Don

[Multicusp]

A large part of this extended thread has alot to do with locations and sites that may be depleted from overcollecting. I have been in many heated discussions over the sell, or not sell opinions of collectors, most of the time only local NC/ SC collectors, but the fact remains that no matter what you choose to do with your fossils none of us will survive to see the future of our long dead relics. I've always said that my collection of sharks teeth and other fossil really belongs to earth and when we all become fossils ourselves that is where our collections will return to no matter who we give, sell, or trade them to.

[Tarheel59]

Not sure if this even belongs as a part to this thread So Chas kick to a new one if needed

If not for our Beloved Fossil Forum and those of us that are weekend paleontologists I would not have been able to ID a recently found piece and far less to donate it to The museum in New York City.

We have here in the Forum a mesh of ameteur and professionals that for the most part succeed in blending the two groups. If not for Carl from the AMNH located in New York and also a member of FF this piece would have remained hidden in my collection as just a piece non ID'd. He corrosponded with me the importance of the piece and also taught me that we ameteurs do make a difference. As someone else mentioned with so few pros in the field us ameteurs are the eyes and ears for them in parts of the world on a daily basis.

I also see no problem is selling some non-important specimens though I have traded some I have never out right sold any.

I would think that all the societies and museums would benefit from auctions or trade shows of non-important fossils of its members and general public as it only brings the groups together on what could be common ground. It works well for some so it should work well for all if following simple rules and guidelines. Jeff

[Wrangellian]

For the record, the reasons I quit the local society were not just because "they wouldn't let me sell my fossils" (see also my thoughts in this thread if you have doubts about me: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php/topic/30413-anyone-make-money-with-fossils/). I guess everyone's opinion of a group or their policies or a particular issue comes from their own personal experiences with it, and I'll leave it at that.

Anyway I'll be gone for 2 weeks and unable to do the Forum thing - everyone feel free to add to the 'survey' of policies on selling if you can. Our own philosophies maybe are discussed to death by now and it seems like we can all agree on the majority of points, but if there is anything to add, please do.

[JohnJ]

In some ways it seems to me a difficult balance to make, though I think it should be possible. Certainly trading should not be controversial. Someone can add a lot to their collection by trading (or even selling) things that they commonly find for specimens that other collectors find common in the localities available to them. No-one is likely to trade away specimens that are especially rare, uniquely well preserved, or new to science. However, once it becomes a matter of a persons livelihood the balance may shift. Specimens that are especially rare or well preserved are especially valuable, and if people have to weigh an abstract notion such as the "good of science" or "advancement of knowledge" against being able to pay the rent or feed your family you can see why the abstract notions of "societal good" often lose. Some countries seek to forestall the need to even make a choice by regulating fossil sales, but they usually end up casing too wide a net by anyone's measure. Tons of Santana Formation fish are now left to erode in the field, instead of providing revenue for locals and enjoyment for collectors worldwide. I see posts here of wonderful mammoth teeth pulled from Florida rivers; these are highly desirable but are of almost no scientific importance, as they are not "in situ" and can provide no new information (plus, museum shelves are already stuffed with specimens), so it makes perfect sense to allow sale of these specimens. On the other hand, I've seen posts here in FF from people who talk of finding several Megalodon teeth on one trip, then express anger that they "missed one" when they run into another collector who also found a decent specimen. Although that might just be an excess of "competitive spirit" (and we all know fossil collectors who may be described as "obsessive"), when I see that those people also have an eBay store or other sales outlet, I wonder if they see other collectors good luck as money out of their pocket. Personally, I always feel happy for a collector who has found something exceptional; although I'll admit to some jealousy if it's a species I've been looking for for my own collection, and I might kick myself if I had walked past the specimen and failed to see it, I'd never be angry that someone else found something good.

Anyway, in general I don't object to fossil sales, but I think a strong code of ethics should apply, where legitimately scientifically valuable specimens are preserved for research. This is best achieved by a productive relationship between academics and amateurs/professional collectors, so the amateurs/professional collectors can be the eyes on the ground, as there will never be enough professional paleontologists to prospect every outcrop frequently enough to harvest every important specimen before entropy does its job. The system should function as a symbiosis, where paleontologists benefit from an army of trained eyes, and amateurs/commercial collectors benefit from relaxed legal restrictions, access to sites, and access to state-of-the-art information. I have known paleontologists who epitomized this attitude (Tom Bolton and Murray Copeland at the GSC for example), and I'm aware of others who seem to be enraged by every collector who finds a nice Flexicalymene (I won't name names for this side). I know Tom got a lot of papers published based on material or localities that were found by amateurs, because he was a joy to work with (he's passed on now unfortunately), and I think the folks on the other side of the fence lost out because of their hostility. However, none of those folks had to deal with people poaching million-dollar dinosaurs from museum sites, and that's the kind of thing that (unfortunately) motivates legislators to write laws.

Don

Well said, Don.

[crinus]

Our club is associated with the local university and our club name has the universities name in it. We have no policy regarding the selling or buying of fossils. No one here (including professors) have a problem with the selling of fossils. In fact I have never run into any professor that has a problem with the selling of fossils (invertebrates). The museum has hundreds of Phacops trilobites and I have hundreds of Phacops. The university doesn't want them (unless there is something unusual about it) and I don't want them. So I end up selling my extras. My basement has limited space and the museum also has limited space. I am not selling them because I need the money. I just want them out of here to make room for more interesting fossils or that next one of a kind. Throwing them in the trash because someone has a problem with the selling of fossils would be a bigger crime.

Some of you may have noticed the recent influx of LeGrand crinoids at some fossils shows. These came from a museum. A museum didn't have space or the desire to keep them and sold them to a dealer for pennies (they were unprepped). It would have been nice if the museum kept them but I figure that this was better than the dumpster. Some may say "why collect them in the first place". As scylla mentioned, may of these come from quarries and if someone doesn't get them out the crusher will get them come Monday morning. The LeGrand crinoids did come from a quarry. I have been to another backroom of a museum that has shelves and shelves of unprepped LeGrand crinoid slabs. Someday when space becomes an issue, What will happen to all the beautiful crinoids.

I have several institutions that are interested in obtaining parts of my collection. No one want the whole collection. They only want the significant parts that will add to their collection. The remainder will probably get sold. Unfortunately, I can't take it with me.

crinus

[Scylla]

...I think a strong code of ethics should apply, where legitimately scientifically valuable specimens are preserved for research. This is best achieved by a productive relationship between academics and amateurs/professional collectors, so the amateurs/professional collectors can be the eyes on the ground, as there will never be enough professional paleontologists to prospect every outcrop frequently enough to harvest every important specimen before entropy does its job. The system should function as a symbiosis, where paleontologists benefit from an army of trained eyes, and amateurs/commercial collectors benefit from relaxed legal restrictions, access to sites, and access to state-of-the-art information. I have known paleontologists who epitomized this attitude (Tom Bolton and Murray Copeland at the GSC for example), and I'm aware of others who seem to be enraged by every collector who finds a nice Flexicalymene (I won't name names for this side). I know Tom got a lot of papers published based on material or localities that were found by amateurs, because he was a joy to work with (he's passed on now unfortunately), and I think the folks on the other side of the fence lost out because of their hostility. ...

Not sure if this even belongs as a part to this thread So Chas kick to a new one if needed If not for our Beloved Fossil Forum and those of us that are weekend paleontologists I would not have been able to ID a recently found piece and far less to donate it to The museum in New York City. We have here in the Forum a mesh of ameteur and professionals that for the most part succeed in blending the two groups. If not for Carl from the AMNH located in New York and also a member of FF this piece would have remained hidden in my collection as just a piece non ID'd. He corrosponded with me the importance of the piece and also taught me that we ameteurs do make a difference. As someone else mentioned with so few pros in the field us ameteurs are the eyes and ears for them in parts of the world on a daily basis. I also see no problem is selling some non-important specimens though I have traded some I have never out right sold any. I would think that all the societies and museums would benefit from auctions or trade shows of non-important fossils of its members and general public as it only brings the groups together on what could be common ground. It works well for some so it should work well for all if following simple rules and guidelines. Jeff

So lets do something about it. Why not have a "TFF professional of the year award" or a "TFF award for excellence in professional/amateure collaboration" to reward good behavior when we recognise it? We could nominate pro's or teams and the membership could vote like MOTM or FOTM? Just a thought.

[Auspex]

So lets do something about it. Why not have a "TFF professional of the year award" or a "TFF award for excellence in professional/amateure collaboration" to reward good behavior when we recognise it? We could nominate pro's or teams and the membership could vote like MOTM or FOTM? Just a thought.

Just posting kudos for the receptive, helpful pros who appreciate the contributions of well-behaved amateurs, and not venting one's spleen publicly at the pros who behave otherwise will go a long way toward defusing tensions and fostering mutual respect.

[erose]

So lets do something about it. Why not have a "TFF professional of the year award" or a "TFF award for excellence in professional/amateure collaboration" to reward good behavior when we recognise it? We could nominate pro's or teams and the membership could vote like MOTM or FOTM? Just a thought.

I'm with Auspex, let's just keep it friendly and nothing too official. There is a level of "politics" involved in all this that makes me very uncomfortable.

[Scylla]

Just posting kudos for the receptive, helpful pros who appreciate the contributions of well-behaved amateurs, and not venting one's spleen publicly at the pros who behave otherwise will go a long way toward defusing tensions and fostering mutual respect.

I restrained myself from suggesting "the fossil turkey award"

[Wrangellian]

Crinus, I'm with you 100%. These issues all came to mind in my grappling with the Society's stance. I too am not looking to make money, but I have concluded that selling is sometimes the best option when you're out of space and the museum won't take everything you have to give (and I'm not willing to part with my best stuff before the lesser stuff!)