Missourian Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Many years ago, I saw a write-up done by a local collector regarding multiple crinoids found attached to a common stem. It was a description of a 'colony' found in the field. I believe they were Ethelocrinus. They looked something like this: I didn't see it myself -- in person or in photos. I'm not sure if it was for real, a misinterpretation, or an outright fabrication or hoax. I've had my doubts, but yet we find many really large crinoid stems that seem to be way too large for the calices we find around here. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasFossilHunter Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 That's a very cool idea, never thought of it Would explain some things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Sounds like a fantastic fossil freak show... I'd buy a ticket just to see the two-headed trilobite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure this is related, but large stems around here tend to have 'cirri' attachments on one side: Perhaps the large stems were lying flat on the sea floor when living. If multiple calices were attached, they would likely have grown out of the upper side. Edited December 17, 2012 by Missourian Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I have a similar column with two rows of those on one side. It kind of looks like a caterpillar. I just assumed (shame on me), that they were for anchoring. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 I just assumed (shame on me), that they were for anchoring. I'm still inclined to think the same thing (shame on me too ), but anything's possible. Now, I'd like to see what the huge stems would anchor to.... Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KansasFossilHunter Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I have a very similar piece... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinoid Queen Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Yes those attachment points are just for a root like structure for attachment purposes. I have never heard of crinoids sharing a stem. It could be a possibility that they are talking about free living crinoids. As in they were not stalked crinoids that could move around. So potentially they are just perched on the same item such as a stem from another stalked crinoid. But I guess anything is possible and I would definitely want to see it. – CQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarleysGh0st Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I'm not sure this is related, but large stems around here tend to have 'cirri' attachments on one side: They don't have to be large to have cirri. I found this specimen on December 4 at Portland Point (Middle Devonian, Moscow formation). Crinoids are pretty rare and puny-looking at this site, but I was pleased to find this fragment with cirri still attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 They don't have to be large to have cirri. I found this specimen on December 4 at Portland Point (Middle Devonian, Moscow formation). Crinoids are pretty rare and puny-looking at this site, but I was pleased to find this fragment with cirri still attached. Maybe I should have called them 'satellite stems' instead. My point was the attachments being present on one side only. I would expect such an arrangement with a sea-floor-hugging large stem with multiple 'satellite stems' and calices. I would think an upright stem would have cirri (or 'satellite stems') extend in all directions. I put 'scare quotes' around 'cirri' because I'm not sure what they would be called if they had heads on the end. Interesting Devonian stem, by the way. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullsnake Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) I put 'scare quotes' around 'cirri' because I'm not sure what they would be called if they had heads on the end. 'Necks'! Edited December 18, 2012 by Bullsnake Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Your sketch reminds me of colonies that are found with the separate stalks attached to driftwood. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinus Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Here is an example of a crinoid attached to another crinoid stem. http://www.crinus.info/crinoids/data/crema.htm It is probably rare to find but a common occurence. crinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opisthotriton Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Like Ludwigia, I was reminded of the driftwood too. http://echinoblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/giant-floaty-swimmy-fossil-crinoids.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Echinoderms are not an animal that reproduces by any sort of "budding". A two-headed crinoid, let alone nine plus, would be as rare as a two-headed cow. Which is of course to say it could happen. I think if you follow up on the original article it will either be a dead end (not true at all) or, as suggested, be a reference to the various multiple crinoids that have been found attached logs and branches and presumed to have been drifting in the open sea. Somewhere there is an image of a German(?) specimen on a wall-sized plate. Scroll down for image of crinoids: http://pterosaurheresies.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/tanystropheus-a-bipedal-predator/ And here is a Chinese version: http://fossilology.blogspot.com/2011/11/guanling-lagerstatte.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 Echinoderms are not an animal that reproduces by any sort of "budding". A two-headed crinoid, let alone nine plus, would be as rare as a two-headed cow. Which is of course to say it could happen. I think if you follow up on the original article it will either be a dead end (not true at all) or, as suggested, be a reference to the various multiple crinoids that have been found attached logs and branches and presumed to have been drifting in the open sea. Somewhere there is an image of a German(?) specimen on a wall-sized plate. Scroll down for image of crinoids: http://pterosaurhere...pedal-predator/ And here is a Chinese version: http://fossilology.b...agerstatte.html Yeah. When I saw crinus' post above with the nice little crinoid attached to the stem, I thought of the possibility that the Ethelocrinus described in the paper may have merely snagged on a larger stem. You know how these things can play tricks on the eyes when they are exposed in the field. And those German and Chinese crinoid plates are some of the coolest fossils in existence. BTW, if I remember correctly, the 'paper' was probably a write-up in a local club bulletin. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 (edited) My 2 Cents We've all seen the video of crawling crinoids .... Modern stalked crinoid breaks away from holdfast and crawls to escape being eaten alive !! LINK Many argue this is just a characteristic of only "some" MODERN stalked crinoids and NO Evidence of this occurring in the fossil record. I suggest the obvious ... (thinking outside the box) Stalked crinoids were NOT "Chained" in place for life like plants. Holdfasts are NOT "Roots"...Simply "temporary" attachment features. Stalked crinoids in the fossil record had the ability to move, to one degree or another, and re-attach for a long list of reasons. If we consider this to be true ... It would answer lots of questions including source for some odd and interesting traces. Many say we do NOT have "physical proof" of this occurring in the fossil record. I suggest we do have proof, however, the proof has not been interpreted correctly. Edited December 20, 2012 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 On the other hand ... If the Mayan Calendar is correct ... Who cares ??!! Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lmshoemaker Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 They certainly can share a common holdfasts at least, I have a few eucalyptocrinus display this condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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