jbstedman Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 The picture below shows what I've got to work with. A modest sized whale vertebra in two pieces, and one of its epiphysis in three pieces. I want to reassemble the vertebra and, separately, reassemble the broken epiphysis. (FossilFreak, if you read this, you'll recognize the vertebra.) The bone is very porous. To stabilize things (probably unnecessary), at the outset, I applied an acetone - Duco cement solution to the entire array -- soaked up a lot. The problem will arise when I try to actually reassemble the pieces because I don't think either superglue or Elmer's will work. I experimented with two of the epiphysis pieces: superglue just soaks into the bone and the Elmer's isn't tacky enough at the outset to make a seal that will hold to allow the glue to dry (there may be ways to do that that I haven't thought of). What are my other options? Thanks for any recommendations. Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I had a problem with a porous bone once before, what worked for me was making several (5) elmers coats. This filled in the pores enough that super glue worked effectively. It was a shot in the dark though, I would leave it for a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoRon Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 For the vert I would put quite a bit of white glue in the middle of the broken area and place the smaller piece on top of it, make sure there is a good fit and put a strong rubber band around each end. Let the glue dry for a day or so with the break in a horizontal position. With the epiphysis sections see what the best way to put them together is before trying to glue them. Hopefully you can glue the two smaller pieces together and after drying join the two half pieces together. Sometimes you have to glue a smaller piece to the biggest one and then add the third section. It all depends on the shape of the break line as to how easy they will fit in which order. I stick a bit of epiphysis in a container of sand and position the piece so the break is horizontal then I use white glue and stick the second piece on top of it. Make sure both pieces are well balanced and have a good fit. After that dries do the same thing with the last piece. 2 seconds to demonstrate 2 minutes to try to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Has anyone ever tried Tacky Glue? I find it works better than elmers glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Epoxy may be a good bet too, but note it tends to expand at times when it dries. It is tricky to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrocklds Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 use bondo. auto body putty. it is very easy to use and can be removed easily with heat. surface clean up with acetone. paints easily and is very very strong holding things together, especially pourus stuff. i use it everyday, i even use it in places that i could use thick superglue. Brock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 well glue the two main parts together, then glue the cookie to the correct side, on the other side try to fill in as much as you can because i dont think you have the whole cookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryland Mike Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Just a thought and I would experiment on something you don't care about. What about Titebond type wood glue? It has a texture and workability much like Elmer's and as long as it hasn't dried is water soluble. Once it has dried it bonds much more strongly than Elmer's and is no longer water soluble. It does seem to work on porous surfaces. You have to do a good job of clean up before it dries, however, if you are using it on something you can't or don't want to sand. Carpe Diem, Carpe Somnium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Just a thought and I would experiment on something you don't care about. What about Titebond type wood glue? It has a texture and workability much like Elmer's and as long as it hasn't dried is water soluble. Once it has dried it bonds much more strongly than Elmer's and is no longer water soluble. It does seem to work on porous surfaces. You have to do a good job of clean up before it dries, however, if you are using it on something you can't or don't want to sand. I thought wood glues were made up of too much organic compounds? It's a thought though, it would save me a lot of trouble I have loads of the stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I thought wood glues were made up of too much organic compounds? It's a thought though, it would save me a lot of trouble I have loads of the stuff. nope we have used wood glue, right now we are using clear super super glue, and works in 10sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 well glue the two main parts together, then glue the cookie to the correct side, on the other side try to fill in as much as you can because i dont think you have the whole cookie I hadn't thought of gluing the cookies to the vertebra (now that would be a relatively easy gluing job). I'll have to think about that. Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be in experiment mode for awhile. Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maryland Mike Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I thought wood glues were made up of too much organic compounds? It's a thought though, it would save me a lot of trouble I have loads of the stuff. I think it really depends on the porousity of what you are trying to work with. If you would use Elmer's (organic), why not wood glue? I have a wood project done with an older generation Titebond that has held up close to forty years now and no noticeable deterioration. Again, if you are going to try it, I would strongly recommend experimenting with unimportant bits. I would not try Gorilla Glue, which seems to foam and expand on contact with some substances. I wonder if any of our posters who work at museums or with paleontologists will check in on this one. Carpe Diem, Carpe Somnium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I don't know how well it will work on fossils, but plywood glue(liquid nails) cut with acetone is strong, and as it is very viscous, it would fill pores well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 The picture below shows what I've got to work with. A modest sized whale vertebra in two pieces, and one of its epiphysis in three pieces. I want to reassemble the vertebra and, separately, reassemble the broken epiphysis. (FossilFreak, if you read this, you'll recognize the vertebra.)The bone is very porous. To stabilize things (probably unnecessary), at the outset, I applied an acetone - Duco cement solution to the entire array -- soaked up a lot. The problem will arise when I try to actually reassemble the pieces because I don't think either superglue or Elmer's will work. I experimented with two of the epiphysis pieces: superglue just soaks into the bone and the Elmer's isn't tacky enough at the outset to make a seal that will hold to allow the glue to dry (there may be ways to do that that I haven't thought of). What are my other options? Thanks for any recommendations. Uhhhhh . . . errrrrr . . . you've consolidated the bone with a Duco Cement and acetone solution, and now you can't think of a glue that is compatible??? Did I miss something? http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I hadn't thought of gluing the cookies to the vertebra (now that would be a relatively easy gluing job). I'll have to think about that. yup i did it to this one vert i have, make sure it is correctly placed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I would not try Gorilla Glue, which seems to foam and expand on contact with some substances.. Major no, I'll put the warning out now. I use Gorilla Glue on a daily basis at work. I've seen it screw up countless times because of the foaming. It is also very temperature dependent, if it gets too cold when you use it it causes more air pockets as it foams. I've seen 10 foot lumber glued together with it and never come apart again.. and I've seen times when it came apart with ease. Troublesome stuff, however most contracts specify it so we have to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Stick with cyanoacrylates of various viscosity for porous whale bone. See if you can find something like starbond, which works wonders for whale bone. I usually have a few simple steps for prepping whale bones - clean all surfaces, vinac the heck out of it, and then apply a thicker viscosity cyanoacrylate glue (try to find c.a. glue that has the viscosity of elmer's). Plus, you can also buy a glue accelerator that acts as a catalyst and helps it cure within seconds. Don't even bother with anything elmer's, or white glue in general. Don't put it on your fossils... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 \Don't even bother with anything elmer's, or white glue in general. Don't put it on your fossils... Yep, I wouldn't trust anything made from animal parts... then, or now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Uhhhhh . . . errrrrr . . . you've consolidated the bone with a Duco Cement and acetone solution, and now you can't think of a glue that is compatible??? Did I miss something? Harry: Not sure I follow. Was consolidating with a Duco acetone solution a mistake? Or was it painfully obvious I should continue with Duco? JB Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I would not try Gorilla Glue, which seems to foam and expand on contact with some substances. yes it does but is great if you want something done fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Harry: Not sure I follow. Was consolidating with a Duco acetone solution a mistake? Or was it painfully obvious I should continue with Duco? JB LOL Painfully obvious. Duco Cement is admirably suited to your purpose -- strong, colorless, moderate gap-filling properties, acetone clean-up. But white glue would work just as well. If you have a big interior void in the cancellous bone of the centrum, you can fill it with hot melt glue. Then, cap the fill glue with an epoxy putty colored with dry tempera pigment. Or make your own putty with 5-minute epoxy, hardwood powder, and tempera pigment. Shape with a rotary stainless steel brush. Finish with a surface coat of Duco/acetone to cover any scuffs. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilFreak Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 JB, How is this project coming? When it is finished we need a report on what you decided to do and some pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbstedman Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 JB,How is this project coming? When it is finished we need a report on what you decided to do and some pictures. FossilFreak, thanks for asking. I went with Harry's suggestion to use Duco cement since I'd already tried to consolidate the pieces using a Duco-acetone mixture. The Duco worked well, staying on the surface of the edges being glued, with little absorption. The glue set fairly quickly. As the pictures below show, the repair job left something to be desired. At least 2 reasons for the repair seams remaining pretty visible. First, my ineptitude got in the way. Second, even though I tried to consolidate the pieces, they continued to flake or "shed" with the result that, although the pieces fit well together, there were gaps along the edges. JB Repair seam runs along the left third of the vertebra. This was in 3 pieces -- at least they'll all be in one place. Here's the complete epiphysis fitted onto the vertebra. I didn't glue on either epiphysis, though I was tempted because it would cover up some of the repair evidence. Besides fossils, I collect roadcuts, Stream beds, Winter beaches: Places of pilgrimage. Jasper Burns, Fossil Dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebrocklds Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 had you used bondo or a similar product, it would have filled the minor cracks you have. it is then very easy to carve the correct texture and match paint to make an almost invisible fix. again i do this every day and that is the prefered method for most comercial paleotology companies out there. the other common filler/ glue is epoxy putty. stick with bondo and cyano acrylates and you will have everything you need to fix everything. (consolidating with vinac or paraloid when needed) Brock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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