BobWill Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) I found a few of these fossils which I presume are scaphopods in the Finis Shale of the Graham Formation, Cisco Group, Pennsylvanian at Jacksboro Texas. This is the first one I found with this cone shaped end. Could this be the foot? I've never heard whether it is easily fossilized and don't know what it would look like. Any ideas? (sorry about the dark pictures) 25mm long Edited January 9, 2013 by BobWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I found a few of these fossils which I presume are scaphopods in the Finis Shale of the Graham Formation, Cisco Group, Pennsylvanian at Jacksboro Texas. This is the first one I found with this cone shaped end. Could this be the foot? I've never heard whether it is easily fossilized and don't know what it would look like. Any ideas? (sorry about the dark pictures) 25mm long Hi Bob, Your photos are stubborn but I managed to tweak them a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 First, are these for sure scaphopods and not worm tubes or ech spines etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 Thanks for helping with the pictures. My 'puter crashed and my backup has no photo tweeking program. I'm told that echi spines are always straight and these have a curve like you would expect from a scaphopod. The exposure at Jacksboro has produced both and these are different from the usual spines which have much less tapering until the very abrupt flare at the bottom end. Also the spines always have a concave tip after the reverse taper at the base to match the attachment boss. I am unaware of any worm tubes from there with that particular shape and size but will consider that as a possibility if someone has some pictures to show. Maybe if the boss attchment area was missing or worn on a spine and it was distorted in the process of preservation to cause the curve then I could be wrong about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkfoam Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 It certainly looks like a scaphopod to me. One of the characteristics of the scaphopod shell is that it is a hollow tube. As I understand it the foot is soft tissue and has no hard parts to be preserved. I think what we are seeing as the foot is that the tube filled with matrix anf solidified. I think you have a great find. I don't think paleozoic scaphopods are at all common. Jim The Eocene is my favorite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Hi, I'm told that echi spines are always straight I can't help you to ID your fossil, but that is wrong. Several sea urchins (recent and fossils) have curved spines. Fossil species I know : Glypticus hyeroglyphus http://jeanphilippe....hicus_11_mm.jpg Recent species : Cœlopleurus genus http://www.clarenbac...isitus w sp.htm Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Pareidolia : here Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 Thanks Coco for the links to those beautiful urchins. This certainly clarifies the question of curved spines and encouraged me to find the quote I was remembering. Turns out it was refering to the spines found at this site belonging to Archaeocidaris sp. Of course this still doesn't rule out spines as a possibility. And thanks to Jim for the information about the foot. This still leaves me wondering how infill material came to take on such a uniform shape with that odd texture which I haven't seen on other local matrix. I'll take it to the Dallas Paleo meeting tonight and shove it in a few smart faces:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Could this be a crinoid spine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boneman007 Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Looks like a spine to me, but it's not like any echinoid spine i've seen from Jacksboro. Wish I could be more help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 9, 2013 Author Share Posted January 9, 2013 Could this be a crinoid spine? The only crinoid spines I've found there taper even more than urchin spines at the base and have distinctive attachment areas, flat rectangles for axial spines and thin, with three sides for anal spines. Jim correctly noticed that these are hollow shells whereas all spines I've found so far seem to be solid, though that's hard to tell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 Hi, I don't think it is a sea urchin spine, but do you have a broken one ? If yes, I would like to see it please. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Pareidolia : here Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hi, I don't think it is a sea urchin spine, but do you have a broken one ? If yes, I would like to see it please. Coco I'm having trouble getting better photos now but here is one that seems to have a layer missing on part of it. The consensus at the Dallas Paleo meeting tonight was that it wasn't a spine, but there was no invert expert to positively ID it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Hi, Thanks Bobwill for the pic. It confirms me that it isn't a sea urchin spine. Can't help more. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Pareidolia : here Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I can't picture a scaphopod foot preserving in a site like that where no other such soft parts are preserved, but I've been wrong before . It's interesting whatever it is. There are other cone shaped things from the Paleozoic, aren't there? Have we though of all the possibilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 There are many cone-shaped things out there in the Penn rocks, but I've never seen one with the little blunt cone covering the big end like that. Some form of crinoid anal sac spine has my vote. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 ...Some form of crinoid anal sac spine has my vote. Something along those lines might make it easier to reconcile the symmetry and texture of the blunt end, which I think is neither preserved soft tissue, nor in-filled matrix. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 There are many cone-shaped things out there in the Penn rocks, but I've never seen one with the little blunt cone covering the big end like that. Some form of crinoid anal sac spine has my vote. This suggestion had me dragging out my crinoid spines for a look. I notice where the anal spines have a round profile at the pointed end but are flatter toward the attachment area but the axial spines remain round end to end. What I don't see is that unusual texture on any of them where the pointy ends are broken off. It's very tempting to break one near the base to see if it has that pitted texture inside. If someone has any already broken at the large end you can save me the horror of desecrating any poor defensless fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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