Recomended Universities For Paleo

[TMNH]

I am wondering if anyone could recommend what universities in North America would be the best for undergraduate work towards career in paleontology. So far my interests have been mainly in the invertebrate side of the science, but I am not totally set on that and wouldn't mind hearing suggestions for vert or invert paleontology. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

[Missourian]

I believe the University of Kansas is certainly in the mix. I don't know how it compares with others.

[jpc]

For an undergrad degree look around for a place that actually has somone doing research on invert paleo. If you play your cards right you can start out by helping them out in some way... lab assistant f'rinstance.

[TMNH]

I believe the University of Kansas is certainly in the mix. I don't know how it compares with others.

Thanks I will check into that.

For an undergrad degree look around for a place that actually has someone doing research on invert paleo. If you play your cards right you can start out by helping them out in some way... lab assistant f'rinstance.

That's a good idea, thanks! Getting involved right out of the gate would be great!

[KansasFossilHunter]

I believe the University of Kansas is certainly in the mix. I don't know how it compares with others.

I second this recommendation

[Scylla]

I am sure you found this ranking. But I think any geology, biology or even chemistry, physics, etc undergrad degree could still get you into a good graduate paleontology program.

[Opisthotriton]

I don't know if you're anxious to get away from home, but honestly the University of Toronto has a really excellent group of paleontologists, both vertebrate and invertebrate. I know the invert people do research on the Burgess Shale. Plus they're all affiliated with the Royal Ontario Museum, which is also outstanding for paleontology.

Really, any of the Canadian Universities with paleo programs are great choices. And by "paleo program", I mean that they have a couple of professors who are paleontologists, and hopefully those professors have graduate students, and they all actively do research and fieldwork. It does not matter too much whether they are in a biology or geology department; you will want to take both biology and geology classes either way, although when you're ready for grad school, whether your degree is called biology or geology might affect which grad schools you can apply to. You do NOT need to look for somewhere that has an official paleo degree for undergrads. This is your time to get good broad background knowledge of many areas of science, and then do a senior research project with a paleontology professor.

[FossilDAWG]

There are good programs at several Canadian universities.

As a Canadian, at any public US university you will be charged non-resident tuition, which will be twice or more what in-state students pay. Private universities are significantly more expensive than that (think $50,000/year, not including room and board or books). Additionally you will have to buy private health insurance as OHIP will not cover you in the US. Expect to finish your undergraduate degree with $50,000-$200,000 or more in debt, unless you have that much saved up and can pay cash. You can get as good an education at any of several Canadian universities, for much less cost (though still not negligible). Then if you want you can choose a US university for grad school, and most research or teaching assistantships include a tuition waiver.

Don

[AgrilusHunter]

Hi TMNH,

Opisthotriton and FossilDAWG have given you top shelf advice, I second both of their opinions. Best of luck with whatever path you choose!

[Boneman007]

I work closely with the University of Toronto, and SMU, in Dallas, and can vouch for both.

I can also say that KU is top notch as well.

[TMNH]

Thank you for all of the input! I know the U of T is a great school and I intend to apply there, but I would like to have a few other possible choices to look at as well.

I have one other question that I forgot before. Is employability affected very much by where you get your education?

[Opisthotriton]

That depends on how much education you intend to get, and what type of job you want. If it matters at all, jobs will care about the quality of the university where you got your final degree, i.e. to get a professorship, they will care more about where you got your PhD than where you got your bachelor's. The prestige of the grad schools you can get accepted to will depend on where you got your bachelor's degree. Most of the time (one hopes) it is the quality of the department or advisor that matters more than the reputation of the entire university; generally better to go to a lower-ranked school with a highly-ranked paleo program than a higher-ranked school with a lowly-ranked paleo program.

[siteseer]

You should consider the University of California, Berkeley and the University of Florida.

I am wondering if anyone could recommend what universities in North America would be the best for undergraduate work towards career in paleontology. So far my interests have been mainly in the invertebrate side of the science, but I am not totally set on that and wouldn't mind hearing suggestions for vert or invert paleontology. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

[larry739]

University of New Mexico is excellent and there is the added benefit of having the greatest fossil hunting areas within minutes of town.

[Vordigern]

Ive been volunteering at Drexel University (Philadelphia PA) in their paleo lab and at their nearby dig site so Im going to have to give them my vote they recently aquired the Philadelphia Academy of Natural Science Museum and have some big "projects" they are currently working on, its been very exciting working with Dr Lacovara and his grad and undergrad students

[Scylla]

Well, I resisted at first, but if everyone else is cheering for their local University, I'll have to put in my 2 cents for SUNY Stony Brook. They have an excellent faculty in both paleontology and paleoanthropology. We even have dinosaurs spread around campus in the admin building and the hospital. While the closest fossil deposits are far away, you have NYC and AMNH a 1-2 hour ride away, and besides, I think most of the collecting is done in Madagascar and East Africa anyway. I think most of the focus is vertebrate paleo though, so if your heart is set on inverts, it may not be the best place. Follow the links and see whats there.

[FossilDAWG]

It's really great that so many people seem to have positive relations with their local (or not so local) universities. I would just reiterate that TMNH is a Canadian living on Ontario. Attending a US University as a foreign student means HUGE bills and no eligibility for Pell grants or subsidized student loans. Is it wise to accrue $200,000 or more in debt for an undergraduate degree, when an education that is EVERY BIT AS GOOD is available any several Canadian universities, including several in Ontario (where he would pay the resident tuition rate), for a TINY fraction of the cost.

Let me use the university where I teach as an example. This is a major ("flagship") State university, with a reputation for relatively low tuition and an excellent return on investment. Here is the tuition for one semester (Spring 2013):

In state student: $3,823

Out of state/foreign: $12,928

Note that tuition does not include various mandatory fees, such as technology fees, that add about $1,000/semester.

So to get a 4 year degree at my university, as a foreign student, TMNH would pay not less than $111,424 in tuition costs alone. I say not less than because tuition seems to go up ever year, as state support for the public university system decreases and costs are shifted to the tuition side.

Figure another $600-$1,000/semester for books and supplies directly related to coursework.

Every university requires foreign students to buy health insurance. This will add ~$1,600/yr for a single young healthy person with no medical issues.

Then he will have to pay for room and board, and hopefully something left over for entertainment. Figure a minimum of $5,000/semester if he wants to live in a dorm with a bunch of other students and eat on the cheap meal plan, or a couple of thousand more to live off campus. So lets say we add $15,000/academic year (not including the summer session), or $60,000 for the 4-year degree.

That's where the $200,000 estimate comes from. And, that is a cheap degree for a foreigner in the US.

At the University of Toronto tuition for the full 2013-2014 year (so 2 academic semesters) is $12,363. That's more than I thought it would be, but it's still just half of the non-resident tuition in the US. He would be covered by the provincial health insurance and have no additional costs. Other good schools are less expensive; for example tuition for Spring 2013 at the University of Waterloo was $3,119.65.

So a degree at a Canadian university that is every bit as good as a US degree will cost 1/2 the investment, or less. How much "prestige" in terms of "name recognition" does $100,000+ buy? Plus after paying back the student loans that $100,000 will be more like $160,000.

When it comes to grad school, choose a school based on the research area you want to go into and the expertise of the faculty. You want to go where the best person is, because your ticket to employment after grad school will depend mostly on 2 things: the papers you publish, and the recommendation and reputation of your advisor. Those two things will allow potential employers to evaluate your potential to succeed in a career. Good grades are important, and all other things being equal (which they never are) the very last thing on the list is the name of the school.

Don

Edited June 1, 2013 by FossilDAWG

[Scylla]

But Don, he asked for options outside Canada too. The overall costs of education are quite difficult to guess at for an individual since aid and scolarships also play into the mix. Some US private schools end up being cheaper than state schools for an individual because of large grants/scolarships. TMNH should apply to all the schools that will give him the education he wants, then after he is accepted, he can decide on which one based on financial aspects as well. A US school giving a full scholarship would be a better financial bet for him than a Canadian one offering a half scholarship, for example. As far as school name recognition goes, I have seen places where the school you come from is much more important than your grades in selecting a job applicant, and I have seen the opposite as well. It depends on where you want to end up.

[TMNH]

Thanks for all of the input! Being able to hear so many perspectives was exactly what I was looking for. I will have to consider all of your suggestions over this summer as I make my decisions of where to apply. It has been interesting to hear how important the professor and getting involved with research at an early stage is. I also appreciate the university suggestions many of you made and I will check into all of them.

[Jersey]

I suggest that you approach this in a more general way (pertaining to geology) and not limit it to paleontology. You may find (as I did) that the opportunities are rather limited for jobs that are truly paleontology related. Get a good background in geology and there will be more opportunities for you. For example, after I finished graduate school specializing in micropaleo, I had the opportunity to teach geology at a junior college. I took that job for a few years and ultimately left it to work for a state environmental protection department where I worked for the next 35 years. So, get a broad geology education even though you specialize in paleo. and you may be happy down the road. Best of luck whatever you decide.

[Missourian]

I suggest that you approach this in a more general way (pertaining to geology) and not limit it to paleontology. You may find (as I did) that the opportunities are rather limited for jobs that are truly paleontology related. Get a good background in geology and there will be more opportunities for you. For example, after I finished graduate school specializing in micropaleo, I had the opportunity to teach geology at a junior college. I took that job for a few years and ultimately left it to work for a state environmental protection department where I worked for the next 35 years. So, get a broad geology education even though you specialize in paleo. and you may be happy down the road.

I agree. A broader education in sedimentary geology can be rewarding for one's avocation as well as one's vocation. Knowledge in sedimentology, stratigraphy, etc. can aid and enhance the fossil collecting experience.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Missourian