No Excuses For Not Knowing Where To Start Hunting Fossils!

[Uncle Siphuncle]

i think that naturegaltx was speaking from a practical standpoint, from the perspective of a motivated, self financed amateur collector. most sites are small and give up a few good fossils every few weathering cycles. introduce a deluge of humanity to the average site, then the person who had the initiative to find it in the first place

will soon view the site as non renewable, from a

collecting standpoint, as a direct result of it becoming public knowledge.

Edited January 15, 2014 by danwoehr

[Ray Eklund]

i think that naturegaltx was speaking from a practical standpoint, from the perspective of a motivated, self financed amateur collector. most sites are small and give up a few good fossils every few weathering cycles. introduce a deluge of humanity to the average site, then the person who had the initiative to find it in the first place

will soon view the site as non renewable, from a

collecting standpoint, as a direct result of it becoming public knowledge.

I totally agree with you and your idea of a site eventually being picked clean by groups of collectors with good intentions.

Although, the process of weathering is what PROTECTS THE SITE! This is true of the majority of Tertiary fossil locations and Mesozoic terrestrial formations. It is really an interesting aspect to the debate that we "are running out of fossils". A barren "soft rock" location in several years becomes productive again, so time is our friend and site protector.

On another Post I have given very "detailed" information on collecting in the Nebraska Oligocene Badlands. Why you ask? I must be very naive or... promoting something. Neither. The majority of these Badlands are on private property and by their leasing or daily leasing to a party of collectors, supports the local community. It is a heads up to conserve a fossil collector's hard earned wages and have at least a possibility to collect in the part of a formation that HAS something to find. Of all the fossil collecting opportunities I have experienced in my lifetime... the western Nebraska Badlands made the biggest impression. Even if I found nothing... the experience of just the topography is "shocking" to someone from anywhere but the Rocky Mountains. I actually encourage amateurs and novice to at least SEE and with luck, actually be able to collect at a Ranch open to collectors. Unlike the South Dakota Badlands in the National Park on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation... the Nebraska Badlands can be examined up closer.

I had encouraged one Ranch that had easy access, many acres of productive badlands, access to the Black Hills and back in a day, horse back riding, actual history of the Sioux Indians that had hunted in the area, etc and a wonderful area for camping north of the Pine Ridge. It just was not why they had a Ranch. They enjoyed the remoteness. This is the conflict between Ranch and Collector. Those from a populated area would think otherwise, but many from a city want to find this remoteness.

Well... back to publications. Older US Geological Survey papers give locations to fossil areas in text and maps. By the early 1980's Universities, Federal and State paleontology papers began to use "coded" locations, only available to those individuals that needed the information. I can understand why these sites are protected, as you have said. I am sure it will continue. The majority of current books on specific sites are usually already protected sites or so well known that it would not disturb the site any more than today. I would expect the majority of these "protected sites" were discovered by a bull dozer operator or an amateur collector.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

My experience is that the weathering effects vary by site and lithology, and one should take this into consideration with site management on a per site basis. I've heard folks imply that all sites regenerate somewhat equally, but I find this statement to be a bit naive, or at least idealistic. I often scout new sites alone, so that I can size up return potential, then ponder how often I should return with friends, and how many per visit, after I've returned with my wife and kid to sample the first fruits, as many seemingly virgin sites seem to pan out best on the first visit or two. On occasion I find a site that regenerates so aggressively with a moderate rain, that I enjoy bringing someone along each time. My best such site allowed me to guide about 75 people over the years, including several museums and universities, some guests multiple times. But most sites spit out fossils more sparingly, or need a more major weather event to promote regeneration. Sites with small fossils often can handle more collecting pressure than those with larger fossils where the first person on site essentially gets it all.

Regarding the Badlands, I too find something magical about that collecting venue. Bones don't seem to come that freely at most of the Texas venues I've explored, of any age. But good venues these days will certainly drain your wallet. For that reason I'd like to return after massive rain, as my initial visit was on the third of three annual trips to our target ranch, during a drought year.

[Wrangellian]

Lots of food for thought in this thread.

With all the stories of unethical collectors I am realizing why I was suspected of being one myself when I was a member of the local Paleo Soc. (Still it's not appropriate to accuse someone of something they are innocent of, and that treatment drove me to quit).

My short-version answer to the question of where to find fossils is 1) learn to recognize sedimentary rock, 2) drive or hike around until you see some, 3) look there! (Of course the wiser and more motivated will quickly realize they can save a lot of footwork by doing more research, consulting maps, the internet, TFF...) You hardly have to give more of an answer than this when a newbie asks you.

I agree as well with everything that has been said about amateur collectors (being one myself), and that fossils in general are continually being formed and exposed by erosion, but that certain sites and certain fossil types are more limited than others, eg. the tiny but significant Burgess Shale. Fossils of extinct species are variously rare or abundant but all are limited (finite) and therefore warrant varying treatment (management). That said, I don't think there is any logical reason why any fossil should be prevented from being picked up if someone desires to collect it, especially the rare ones, and it's a shame that the official 'protection' of such sites often causes some of these rare fossils to be left there to crumble when they could be put in the collections of some of the smaller institutions other than just the Smithsonian or ROM, or even in private collections where they would last longer than out in the weather. Maybe judicious 'management' of such sites would be more widely beneficial than 'protection' as it is currently enacted. Sometimes I think experienced amateurs like all of you guys are better at managing sites than gov'ts and institutions are. But that's another topic which we have gone over elsewhere so I won't go on about it! Point is, we know when to keep a site secret and when to tell people, and who and how many - and we all generally are eager to show a specialist when we think we've found something significant. Perhaps it's good to be up front with our intentions, both the giver and receiver of site information - who we are and what we expect. Maybe we will make a mistake and tell the wrong person, but if we are up front about how much work we put into finding the site, and that we don't want to find it permanently picked clean from then on, it might deter at least some of them from abusing the privilege. I don't know, maybe I'm a little naive on this, but I'm not sure many newbies understand these ethics if we don't tell them.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Wrangellian

[Missourian]

My 'approach' to the issue (though not exactly intentional) was to develop an interest in types of fossils that tend to 'fly under the radar'. At the moment, microfossils, algae and sponges are where it's at. To me, they are just as fascinating as anything else, but no one seems to care a whit about them -- and likely never will. A site may be picked clean of the 'good' stuff, but that's ok. I can come in behind and get the other good stuff. I still love to collect trilobites, crinoids, cephalopods -- and vertebrates, if I had the opportunity -- but it is often just too draining to contend with competition with other collectors, legal red tape, rarity of specimens, etc.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Missourian

[Ray Eklund]

Lots of food for thought in this thread.

You can serve me whatever you are cooking over the campfire, any day, anywhere!

Vancouver Island? Why, all you need to do is wait and new strata is coming your way as we speak. I even bet VI was some isolated island in the Pacific before you hammered into North America? So be patient and the fossils will come your way over geologic history.

The Burgess Shale... what a wonderful preservation for those soft body parts! Unique, you think? Not so...

There are at least one, probably more locations in the State of Utah with soft bodied Cambrian fossils. This I was told by a National Park Service geologist... and I did not want to know the exact location, well I really did, but... did not ask for any more information than I was told. So I generalized for the entire state of Utah and its varied Cambrian deposits of complex origins. But... I was assured by this reliable source of information that this place exists and is as "shocking" as the Burgess Shale... just not being exploited at the present time.

For the exact reasons you speak of in your well written comments and thoughts. This place may be a small exposure... or large... I do not know and do not want to be tempted to know. I could take out a geological map and could narrow this location down in short time... but I would not be able to look this person in the eyes ever again and not feel I betrayed a misstep in conversation on the subject of soft bodied Cambrian fossil locations.

We might think there are unique places for fossils of unusual scientific value in this world... but trust me from all the literature I have found myself digging into over the years, we have only scratched the easy to GET TO places. There are many more undiscovered within sight of the horizon on your next fossil hunting trip. YOU just need to put in the effort, study and try, ever so hard, RESIST telling anyone where unless it is to add something new to what has been unknown as to date!

Professionals are PAID to love paleontology. Amateurs love paleontology for FREE. There is a big difference between the two.

[Ray Eklund]

My 'approach' to the issue (though not exactly intentional) was to develop an interest in types of fossils that tend to 'fly under the radar'. At the moment, microfossils, algae and sponges are where it's at. To me, they are just as fascinating as anything else, but no one seems to care a whit about them -- and likely never will. A site may be picked clean of the 'good' stuff, but that's ok. I can come in behind and get the other good stuff. I still love to collect trilobites, crinoids, cephalopods -- and vertebrates, if I had the opportunity -- but it is often just too draining to contend with competition with other collectors, legal red tape, rarity of specimens, etc.

...and those take up very little space and you can wash limestone and shale to find thousands of interesting things that no one has even found the time or patience to study. Petroleum geologists find more oil knowing what micro fossils are being found... but a Cretaceous reptile or two could make the hunt interesting.

[Wrangellian]

Vancouver Island? Why, all you need to do is wait and new strata is coming your way as we speak. I even bet VI was some isolated island in the Pacific before you hammered into North America? So be patient and the fossils will come your way over geologic history.

There are at least one, probably more locations in the State of Utah with soft bodied Cambrian fossils. This I was told by a National Park Service geologist... and I did not want to know the exact location, well I really did, but... did not ask for any more information than I was told. So I generalized for the entire state of Utah and its varied Cambrian deposits of complex origins. But... I was assured by this reliable source of information that this place exists and is as "shocking" as the Burgess Shale... just not being exploited at the present time.

For the exact reasons you speak of in your well written comments and thoughts. This place may be a small exposure... or large... I do not know and do not want to be tempted to know. I could take out a geological map and could narrow this location down in short time... but I would not be able to look this person in the eyes ever again and not feel I betrayed a misstep in conversation on the subject of soft bodied Cambrian fossil locations.

We might think there are unique places for fossils of unusual scientific value in this world... but trust me from all the literature I have found myself digging into over the years, we have only scratched the easy to GET TO places. There are many more undiscovered within sight of the horizon on your next fossil hunting trip. YOU just need to put in the effort, study and try, ever so hard, RESIST telling anyone where unless it is to add something new to what has been unknown as to date!

Professionals are PAID to love paleontology. Amateurs love paleontology for FREE. There is a big difference between the two.

That is interesting.. I hope there are more Cambrian (and Ediacaran, etc) lagerstatten yet to be discovered, but I'm sure they're rarer than the later and non-soft-bodied deposits, and they have a tendency once discovered to get roped off - my only complaint is that when they are roped off and excavated, only the best, most interesting and rare specimens get taken to those institutions which I would have to travel across the continent to see; the rest are left there at the site, exposed to the elements, and if any unauthorized person is caught taking one they are prosecuted. There are no more Cambrian fossils being made, and the Walcott Quarry, for one, is within sight of being mined out. Even if there are more such sites to be found, like you say we're getting the easy ones first. (Then again, they've already found one in northern Greenland - how much harder can it get?)

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm with Missourian, I can content myself with the underappreciated things like sponges and algae, or whatever I can find in my area..

(BTW yes, Vancouver Island was part of the Wrangellia exotic terrane! But I don't think there are any new fossil being pushed up to us - certainly nothing Cretaceous or older.)

Edited January 27, 2014 by Wrangellian

[ZiggieCie]

If the one! rarest fossil, missing link to the existence of life is not found and collected, and turns into dust or mud, did it ever exist?

There is not enough money for the few "professionals" to collect every fossil exposed. We do it for free and will let them know if something important is found.

[Ray Eklund]

If the one! rarest fossil, missing link to the existence of life is not found and collected, and turns into dust or mud, did it ever exist?

There is not enough money for the few "professionals" to collect every fossil exposed. We do it for free and will let them know if something important is found.

The "oldest fossils on Earth" are to be found in the meta sediments and they have been buried, cooked, flowed and then shoved back into our faces. Bacteria that are stretched out of shape and the sediments have been turned to metamorphic rocks once, twice... who knows... but they are out in the field to be discovered. Not in Ohio, but find those earliest meta sediments and spend a lifetime making thin sections.

The next time you eat some cheese... some of your ancient relatives might be in there... screaming at you!

Great thinking... keep it up. Maybe it would be easier to hunt the missing link of life is right under your skin... your DNA is the building block from A to Z. We have a direct line back to whatever part of the chain that still exists.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ray Eklund

[Ray Eklund]

If NASA sends scientists to Mars to hunt fossils... I would feel comfortable that anyone who has posted on this discussion would do better than the majority of PhD's. There are "book learned" fossil people and "field learned". There is a very big difference.

I can spot a fossil further away than most. Experience.

I can determine a possible fossil from something that appears to be something resembling a fossil quickly.

I can be walking miles along a formation to figure out that... I am in the wrong place to find fossils and then walk up or down the formations to find those special spots.

Some of these characteristics to hunt and explore can be learned over time.

Collectors who keep returning from a vacation with a carton of superb finds are usually the "natural born curious with an excellent eye for shapes". Not all of us will be professional football players, or artists or musicians or pilots... Fossil hunters are born with the ability to search and find. They are a minority and are those who discover what was not to be there. I would like to believe I am one of these individuals... but far from it. Your life is not a 9 to 5, 5 days a week at a job and some hours on a weekend hunting outcrops. Many of these individuals live in a tent or camper, good and bad weather and have a passion that the majority of people would not enjoy. Please, do not be envious of these individuals. They are doing what they do best and that is to find "things".

Befriend these individuals who may appear to be rough on the exterior like an Oregon Thunder Egg, but on the interior they are just as nice as the rest of us and just see our world... a little bit different. Once you understand, you have made one more step from being a "fossil accumulator" towards being a true "collector". There is a difference. You need not fit into the Fossil Club scene... you need not as you already have all the skills necessary to operate as an individual out in the unknown areas of collecting specimens. ... and maybe after reading my heart felt feelings towards the minority of fossil collectors, you will see their world differently beginning today.

[DeloiVarden]

I love this discussion and am glad to see that I am not the only one that gets frustrated at folks expecting us to just roll over and give them all of the places we find fossils. Folks don't understand that a big part of the experience is the hunt. And if you are not willing to put in the effort or time, you are generally going to have fewer fossils of lesser quality if any fossils at all. Thanks for talking about this and helping to give newbies a more realistic perspective. I hope that a few take it to heart.

Edited January 25, 2014 by DeloiVarden

[Missourian]

If NASA sends scientists to Mars to hunt fossils... I would feel comfortable that anyone who has posted on this discussion would do better than the majority of PhD's. There are "book learned" fossil people and "field learned". There is a very big difference.

If I could go to Mars and do proper recon, I'd look for stromatolites, or otherwise try to find bedding or other sedimentary structures that would potentially preserve fossils. I'd leave the organic chemical analysis stuff to the lab guys.

Of course, if I found a good collecting spot there, I would share its location with others.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Missourian

[Wrangellian]

(I can see this going in a whole new direction easily...)

It's always good to be the first at a new site, whether you tell anyone about it or not!

[Ray Eklund]

(I can see this going in a whole new direction easily...)

It's always good to be the first at a new site, whether you tell anyone about it or not!

A "new site" is usually relative to how new. Some of my best collecting areas were sites that had been over collected... and abandoned. Twenty, thirty, one hundred years later it is full of parts, pieces and fresh complete specimens just beginning to weather out! So our new sites are usually someone else's "discarded" site. Time refreshes ALL sites over time.

My FIRST RULE to finding... and I quit the sentence without saying what I am seeking. I have been hunting fossils in an area and found more Indian Artifacts. I have been metal detecting a potential site for coins and found Agates. I have been on the hunt for fossils and found 100 year old barb wire... NEVER narrow your collecting down so much you miss the real interesting things to be found!

Decide WHAT you are looking FOR FIRST.

If I am looking for Devonian fossils, I will not find them in an area that the latest outcrops are Ordovician. If I am looking for fossil mammals... they are not in the Mississippian limestones. This applies to Rock Hunting as well.

(1) BUY your own geological map of the area you live or wish to make some finds. If it has not already been colored in for the various formations or geological periods... YOU color them in. This coloring in of the outcrops will imprint onto your memory more than reading the text will.

(2) Determine what Formation or Period you have an interest. Locate the outcrops on the map. Sometimes the geologist(s) slacked off and did not do the best job following the outcrops. It could have been taken from an aerial photograph and they inked in formations and outcrops... and a little guess work. Sometimes, they walked the outcrops until the poison ivy became too thick, or the brush too difficult to push through... and fudged a bit. YOU connect the dots when there are no dots to connect. This is how you find those 100 square foot "fossil honey pits"!

(3) GPS the location and elevation. At least you will be able to find the location on a return trip. The majority of ALL ocean laid deposits were deposited FLAT and in very large areas. Large... thousands or hundreds of thousands of square miles. Some of the deposits were lost through erosion before mankind was curious enough to collect fossils. Some before the first Cambrian trilobites were burrowing through the mud for organic bits of food. In the UK they have lots of outliers and inliers. What? you ask yourself. Look it up. This is sometimes the most important discovery you can make. Finding an "inlier". That isolated bit of outcrop, possibly resistant to erosion due to hardness OR due to fossils being compacted into a small densely fossiliferous area.

(4) Walk the outcrops. A formation might have a few scattered fossils over most of its exposures. You will be ready to give up as you see everyone else seemed to stop and turn around at this one spot you are asking yourself this question. But... look at your colored map and look off to the distance to see the outcrops poking out irregularly in the distance. Pull out that apple and trot off while munching away... this could BE the find of your lifetime! If not... you know not to go back again. Mark it off of YOUR map.

(5) Empty collecting bag is as important as a Full collecting bag. If you hit a producing part of a new formation for the FIRST time... consider yourself one lucky collector. In my case, it is like Mighty Casey Up to Bat poem. I have had more strikeouts than home runs... but my home runs were way out of the park. Just be persistent with planning outings. Have a purpose. MOST fossil and mineral collectors seek comfort from FAILURE by going to the same location as everyone else. If gold miners did this, 100% would have returned empty handed. Most gold prospectors were on top of each other and the successful hunters, gold, minerals, crystals and yes... fossils... went off on their own to discover the FIRST pickings!

I do encourage the new collector to go to an established site and "study the color, the thickness, the variety of fossils". THEN cut the umbilical cord. Be an explorer... an adventurer... go where no fossil collector felt worthy of going. Eventually you will be successful beyond your imagination.

(6) Failure is NOT a viable option. You failed for a reason. Bad geological information. Lack of enthusiasm. Stopped 50 feet short of the greatest discovery around the next hillside. For a number of reasons. Study your geological map. What formations are above and below. Maybe this area 300,000,000 years ago was in a strong current channel and no fossils laid on the bottom long enough to be preserved... THINK.

(7) When everything else fails. Move on to another area. Look around you. Today there are grasses along the creek and trees higher up. There are calm ponds, eddies and creek bottoms. Even an Oceanic Deposit of great size had a shoreline or a bay at one time. Think outside the normal collector who uses "Where to find #$%$" and has a road map to the spot and an X. Run away from this kind of mind set. Be a "Fossil Prospector". Imagine from your geological map where shallow water may have been. Reefs in an isolated area are excellent producers (Raytown Reefs in the Independence, Missouri area is an example in the Pennsylvanian ocean.) Look for the quirks in geology. The possibilities. Oceans come and go. Mountains push up and erode down to their roots. Your driveway is also just temporary... geologically. Your home. Your home town is destined to become a buried ruin. Collectors of the future will pay to dig at your local landfill!

It is the same with oceans, mountains and even the large Pleistocene Lakes in Nevada, Utah and Idaho. Climate changes. Oceans recede and then over take the shore lines that were land. You do not have to have a degree in Geology to figure this out. Look at a book on your desk. Each page contains different words, photographs, diagrams. The stratigraphy in your area may not contain words... but the fossils in it tell the story of its history. The Fossils are the TEXT. Know shallow water fossils from a deep water fossils. (There are books on these differences...) What are you hunting for? Look for those clues. Be quiet about it or... have confidence in someone who might want to participate on this discovery in waiting. If you give up because it is too hard... then go to the Rock Show and pay the guy who did not quit. Who did not throw up his arms in disgust and felt incompetent. Be the give up too easy collector.

(8) Most Important! Do what you are most comfortable. My points are for the 20% who are restless, like myself. It is nice working a proven outcrop. Some, like the phosphate pits and Cretaceous shorelines will always be producers. But most of us are stuck with a lot of barren rock to work with. Even my Oligocene Badlands go stale on me for finds and I can blame it on the lack of precipitation or someone beat me to the outcrops!

Your physical strength may not be what is use to be and you are totally content to explore your favorite producing outcrop. My time is coming to be more stationary. But those of you who are still mobile... get some fresh air and explore a bit more often while you can. Some day you will not physically be able to check out those outcrops in the distance as you just cannot manage it. You can always go back to those consistent producing outcrops that everyone works over and be content. There is nothing wrong with that at all. We all will end up with dreams that are easier to accomplish.

But... if you are full of energy and enthusiasm. Follow these steps to fossil hunting success. And when you do discover that dream... thefossilforum is awaiting for the story and photographs! At least we can all share your dream and it will push us just... a bit further...

Edited February 17, 2014 by Ray Eklund

[Wrangellian]

Maybe things are different in other parts of the continent/world but here on Vancouver Island, any site that is exposed, 100 years or even 20 years later is overgrown and completely uncollectable! That is unless it is continually reexposed, like a river. Most sites that are within reach of the average person are reached regularly by collectors and are therefore picked over.

I have some ideas in mind as to where to go exploring for new (or rediscover old) sites, but they are a little out of the way and I don't feel safe going there alone.

[Ray Eklund]

I have often wondered about Bureau of Land Management, National Forest and National Grassland management never waiver on the Antiquities Act interpretation that Fossils are an extension of protected and nonrenewable assets in the USA.

I can fully understand protecting the Archaeological Sites. It is disturbing that the major archaeological sites in the Midwest and East were totally destroyed by towns, cities and the clear cutting for farms in the beginnings of America. The ball courts along the Missouri River in Kansas City were mentioned and convenient for development. Burial mounds. Even a lack of interest of anyone for the American Indian of the mid to late 19th century... the Europeans took an interest but Americans were less interested.

The Southwest was full of Pit Houses, Cliff Dwellings and large complexes made from stone near rivers. Totally looted. And the loot primarily sold to European buyers. Now after the looting and commercial profits squandered over time... we are left with an onerous law that understood the previous lack of regard for our country's original inhabitants for what was left.

When the West had become settled and access by rail and by road improved, Mesozoic and Cenozoic vertebrates had lain, on the surface for time forgotten and literally TONS and TONS of bone was collected and shipped by on the rails. Quarries were opened and access to shipping the finds was made easier. There was so much in the control of major institutions that there was not enough money or space to prepare and exhibit the finds. Professors Marsh and Cope are good examples of Institutional collecting and the ego's of this form of fossil collecting. There are a number of collectors who became famous for their abilities to locate and offer fossil specimens to whomever wanted them. Most were associated with Universities or Institutions... but for profit or salary.

I bring us from the 19th century and early 20 century to the 21st century. The majority of the quarries remain silent. How many teeth, bones, skulls or skeletons does society need... or even want? The exploratory days were over and the "work" was left to others. The others did not get the recognition of the great discoveries... but did all of the work to prepare and mount these treasures found in abundance. The "Golden Days of Paleontology" were... over. The books and promotion DID affect others who were spectators in this quest to be the first and most recognized... US, the AMATEUR COLLECTOR.

The Amateur Collector was drawn into Paleontology by the massive public promotion of Museums. It became an money making industry, providing detail by detail studies with photographs and engravings of these discoveries... for a price, of course. Admissions. Donations. Sponsorships... The public opened up their pocket books to hear more. Out of the general public rose the Amateur Collector. Well read from all of the literature available. Their interest in the subjects were ravenous... there was no turning back. American developed a new generation of fossil collectors who actually who knew more than the original famous Professors of Paleontology and professional collectors. Amateurs who were more knowledgable and had the personal funds to do some exploring themselves. If I had to put an exact date on this change... post World War 2, 1946.

Yes, I might find myself being considered some "fringe" fossil collector with radical ideas... but I am not. I am actually looking at our hobby, our varied interests... as an ASSET, not a destructive Non-Renewable promoter, but as a well, self taught collector and protector of the resources in what is left of our Public Lands. These are being protected for the Public... but yet protected against the Public. This sentence would require a bit more of your precious time, so think about it and then go to my last paragraph, as I think this one out.

WHY not have a Permit System that is paid annually by any Amateur Collector, citizen or not, to have the opportunity (although I feel it is a right) to collect at will on Paleontological Rock Bearing Formations that are not already protected by National Park or National Monument status? This is for "surface collecting" permits. If a quarry is needed... this can be provided with a control as to who is responsible to restore the quarry to its original, or better, natural state.

Fossils are renewable by erosion. Fossils are destroyed by the same conditions that expose them. It is a temporary event in our time, our lives to make use and bring them back to life.

I will pause to make sure that this thought is not lost into the ether or by the wrong stroke upon a delete key. What do you think? How would you propose that this never occur or should. If I were a Creationist... would I be able to collect any thing, any where at any time as fossils are not what you represent them to be. What is being protected. How is that protection considered?

Please think about this issue. Some day the same outcrops we collect will become an airport, expanded city limits or crushed to get to the mineral resources beneath. (Much like the thought of Uranium under the Badlands north of Crawford, Nebraska a couple of decades ago.) Please do not "feel" but "know" what you are saying.

[Ray Eklund]

I will eventually clean up some of the grammar and add some clarity to the previous post, but this is important to understand and comprehend. My thoughts pour out like a bucket that developed some leak... so please read through some of the bumps in my presentation.

Laws are written with poor vision at times. We have no lobbyist to seek redress for our interests. We can PAY to collect WITH the professionals who draw a public salary. We PAY to prepare, shelve or display these finds. When no Institution has an interest in any more... just let it go to... waste.

Erosion is something that is not noticed by the minute, or the hour or a human's lifetime. But it is there and it will cover up our modern cities some day and wash away what we think we are protecting for the future... right now.

I am sorry this idea cannot be covered as well as I would like, but I am not writing a book or manuscript... I just want to plant a seed and hope that some day, maybe not in my our children's lives... something smart will come out of a public outcry of the lack of thought that makes many collectors... thieves and outlaws for something as simple as a fossil. While drugs are made legal and crimes against one another are reduced to the criminal needs opportunities... we harm no one or thing.

It is sad.

[Missourian]

What usually happens is that something is prohibited to the point where only criminals and the officially connected (but I repeat myself ) are able to partake in these activities 'under the table'. Ban fossil collecting to the hilt, and the poachers will still have access, as will Commissioner Bob's fossil-collecting cousin.

[Auspex]

Permitting, with oversight, is reasonable, if somewhat noble, plan for utilization of this natural resource. The devil is in the enforcement (or regulating, if you prefer); Florida had such a system (albeit on a much smaller scale) and had to rescind it due to abuse by some 'market hunters', as there was no financially feasible way to actively monitor it. The system was gamed for profit, with less-scrupled individuals operating legally on the surface.

Such, it seems, is the way of human nature, and any plan will have to address this. I wish there were a way!

[Ray Eklund]

What I have found during the 1945 to 1990 Golden Era of Amateur Fossil and Mineral Collecting is that the commercial hunters were priced out of the market, by the massive increase of swappers and selling of excess specimens by "recreational collectors". At the same time Private Land Owners were opening up their property to "commercial leasing". This drove prices... DOWN. Way down.

A nice Oreodont skull from the Oligocene, with lowers, was worth more in the 1970's than today, relative to wages and even more so. This is what monitors any over collecting by commercial hunters. Reduced demand by retail customers, reduces collecting. Rare specimens are preferred and are brought onto the market.

The Green River Fossil Fish quarries to the west of Kemmerer, Wyoming is an excellent example. A pure GLUT of fish. Now if it is not a bird, reptile or something unusual... the prices realized from a sale is not covering the time and effort to prepare... considering the overhead at leasing a quarry from a private land owner has increased. When the environmental aspect of the quarries being restored to a reasonable, or maybe exceeding, natural landscape... there will be a massive exodus away from the fish quarries. In the last ten years, and I am not an insider, there is enough turn over to think that market is over saturated and prices are in a steep decline.

In my last ten years of collecting in the Nebraska and Wyoming Oligocene... I focused on removing only specimens that were exceptional. This would have been in the 1975 to 1985 transformation of open collecting to lease collecting. I left the rest for everyone else and the specimens were not of poor quality, they just needed more preparation. Today the majority of White River Formation specimens are heavy with matrix and need many hours to prepare. This will bring the values up on prepared specimens, but the "for profit collectors" will also become pickier in their field collecting. Those specimens I put onto the Fossil Forum's auction are from a long time ago and I just never got around to doing anything with them. Today... I would be lucky to find productive locations that are even offered at a daily fee... and had anything to find. I paid for three days to collect at the Meng/Pettipiece Ranch at $20 a day maybe twenty years ago... and after finding NOTHING... quit on the second day and left, never to return. The same at the Thompson Ranch in Wyoming that were open for daily fees.

My experience at the Colorado gem, mineral and fossil shows, which I quit going to some years ago... sales were... way down. Prices were in limbo and many vendors just do not come back. The market was tail gating with unprepared material at local rock shows in areas producing desirable specimens for the collector. This is true for Crawford, Nebraska... if you have an interest.

The OPEN collecting I have in mind are not the large Cretaceous Reptiles or Kansas or Mesozoic Dinosaur exposures of the Western USA. The cost to collect and prepare these specimens are Institutional in financing costs. Although several commercial dealers come in mind, I doubt if they can find customers who have an interest in large expensive displays in an office lobby, today. Commercial fossil businesses would be licensed to commence in their collecting and preparing such undertakings. The Amateur has no experience in these specialized aspects of Paleontology. Even I admit this to be true.

The Tertiary Mammals, all Paleozoic fossils, Paleobotany, and Mesozoic Invertebrates should be open to all collectors. Commercial or private. There is little interest in these areas for Institutions who are already over whelmed with old collections and getting Estate Donations in the future. Leave the BIG expensive to prepare to those Commercial Collectors who have the resources to extract and prepare them. The other 90%... are better collected by the Army of Amateurs who will... and I say WILL... make new discoveries and report them to the specialists that have an interest in them and getting the specimens described and published.

We have over weight children with wasted youth playing video games and HDTV. We have a society where everything is protected... from what... I am not sure. The back country is under utilized for fear of Bear Attacks and becoming Lost as these people have never had an opportunity to be out away from street lights. Erosion exposes new specimens in the softer sediments each year. The limestone and quarry industries are reluctant to being sued by a collector who falls off a ledge and injures themselves. This access of liability must be resolved for commercial quarries and private property owners... with no exceptions. This is what has ruined the opportunity for collectors today. Not the availability of fossils, but the property owner's feeling they have a liability for the stupidity of the few.

One extreme example I have to offer:

My wife and I took and mining university archivist and his wife to camp on National Grasslands north of Toadstool Park, Nebraska. We were hunting for Fairburn Agates to the north. A Department of Agriculture green pickup saw us with a prominent camping spot overlooking "Sugar Loaf" to the north and Toadstool Park to the south. A beautiful camp site if you happen to be camping. Our two Blue Heelers travel in two pet porters and they were sitting on the ground when the DA truck pulled up to see what "we were doing". We had seen him cruising around the Badlands looking for campers and collectors on the National Grasslands. Upon the pet porters were some poor examples of Fairburns. He said you could not collect fossils but the best Fairburn agate collecting is over... and points. We knew that, but appreciated his help.

The point is... if fossils are non renewable... why not Fairburn agates? It is just hard to understand. The fossils are most likely to be weathered out of the soft badlands, and the Fairburn agates are already a thick matt of boulders upon the Pierre Shale that the badlands are deposited. You can collect brown chalcedony in the Chadron Member... but no fossils.

I am 64 years old now and just recall the days of youth clearer than last years camping trips. Most collectors are retired... and the youth do not care about fossils and rocks or camping like we did. There are may modern diversions for this energy. With the fewer collectors... now would be a great time for the Federal Land agencies to come up with consistent rules for the general public to collect and not lay waste to natural resources that are exposed temporarily.

A coal mine can strip off fossil bearing formations to get to the coal near the surface on Federal Mining leases... but a fossil collector with a rock pick is... poaching?

Again, this is just to prepare those interested collectors to the Public Lands of the Western USA for a disappointment. Until the barely enforced rules that have the support of some legal jurisdictions can become uniform and understood, we as amateur collectors are at peril of becoming a felon for nothing more than a massive confusion on the politics of paleontology.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

ray, i agree with much of what you said. interesting perspective. i offer 2 counterpoints.

there are youngsters who like to camp. and it is instinctive for kids to search for and find cool fossils. but nurturing these pursuits requires

mentoring over time....best provided, in my

opinion, by their own parents. my kid is 12 and

while he squawks at being pulled away from his

video games, once in the field he marvels at raw

nature... and gloats when he smokes the old

man in the day's collecting.

my second counterpoint is that i see collecting pressure increasing, not decreasing, even in the remote backwoods. i attribute that to the ease of

acquiring information via internet as compared

to pre internet days. now everyone reaches a

working level of proficiency in record time, and

the easiest access exposures are first to show

evidence of that trend. ma nature regenerates

at her own rate, not ours, unfortunately.

man, i wish i had a mentor in collecting when i was a kid in the 70s. i didnt get started in earnest until it was too late to experience the "guilded age of paleo".

Edited March 6, 2014 by danwoehr

[Ray Eklund]

ray, i agree with much of what you said. interesting perspective. i offer 2 counterpoints.

there are youngsters who like to camp. and it is instinctive for kids to search for and find cool fossils. but nurturing these pursuits requires mentoring over time....best provided, in my opinion, by their own parents. my kid is 12 and while he squawks at being pulled away from his video games, once in the field he marvels at raw nature... and gloats when he smokes the old man in the day's collecting.

my second counterpoint is that i see collecting pressure increasing, not decreasing, even in the remote backwoods. i attribute that to the ease of acquiring information via internet as compared to pre internet days. now everyone reaches a working level of proficiency in record time, and the easiest access exposures are first to show evidence of that trend. ma nture regenerates at her own rate, not ours, unfortunately.

man, i wish i had a mentor in collecting when i was a kid in the 70s. i didnt get started in earnest until it was too late to experience the "guilded age of paleo".

The last sentence makes me a living fossil...

Now, I am in my bubble in the western USA. So I am totally biassed as to my experiences are where I FIND MYSELF.

I in the last twenty years have found NO other collectors out, except for the U Dig Trilobite pay for the day... site. And it was just modestly attended. I do highly recommend splitting shale there as it is a wonderful location and easily accessible. No doubt they have a website. Many of the fossil hunters MISS more than they take. A good eye will find the easy pickings as I have seen people taking the "impression" and missed the actually 2 inch Elrathia kingii.

In the late 1960's, on weekends I would see the "government land" with two to five vehicles along the Badland rims collecting in Western Nebraska. There was a distinction then with government land and private land. No other activity otherwise. At Shalimar there are at least three ways to access those Badlands. All on private property. Even there on a long three day weekend a few vehicles would be seen parked on the north rim. I scarred the bear grease out of a couple when I come around a corner and they were not expecting me to be in the same gully. I drove past the Ranch houses, not that this road was any better than the Poacher's Access.

Since I avoid the "popular places that are in every guide book found at Rock Shops" that could be the reason. I like to discover my own places. It just seems I find better rocks and minerals than fossils... so I am more into Jade Slicks and unusual forms of chalcedony in volatile Oligocene volcanic areas of the west. No other collectors there either.

Millard County, Utah. I met a guy splitting some Cambrian well cemented sandstone for trilobite molds at an abandoned quarry opened for home interior and exterior decor. Scared the bear grease out of him too... thinking this place was absent of humans. He even wore a tee shirt with the fossil that was named after his find there... and was probably in his early 70's. Sounding pretty young to me now.

Wyoming is full of Baculites, Scaphites and Ammonites in the Cretaceous. Many of these locations are on Ranches, too!

Utah and Nevada are full of Trilobites. Just check in with the local BLM offices for local information.

Of course, many might want to know which Ranch, and where to park. This is just my informal way of letting you know that with some effort... and many cases just some research... you can locate about anything and put some effort in meeting the local owners. I have only been denied several times to collect fossils in the West. Once in Niobrara County, Wyoming for White River Fossils... as he may have leased his out. Another was in Wyoming Dinosaur Country that was leased... and I wanted to metal detect. But no go. Some Ranches I knew they had prior arrangements, so need not go a begging on their door step.

(My parents had no interest in rocks, fossils or minerals. I bought an Elrathia trilobite and a piece of Dinosaur bone that were 25 cents at a store display in a package with their geological information. I was being paid $20 a month at the ripe old age of 13 to keep the outside area of a US Army 16 apartment complex clean in Germany. So it was a major investment on my part when a 1/4 pound Baby Ruth candy bar was 5 cents... then went to 10 cents later! It was at that time I wanted to explore... and I did. Nobody encouraged me at all. It was the idea you could step outside and explore to discover things that needed explanation. Never have forgotten that even when poor the out doors is affordable to all of those interested in adventure.)

Edited March 6, 2014 by Ray Eklund

[Uncle Siphuncle]

i do my fair share of exploring as well. in fact, i sort of hang my hat on finding virgin or at least unspoiled or underutilized sites by the sweat of my brow and to the profit of the oil companies.

with a few good self-found sites under my belt, once i get a good, representative sampling from one of these sites, i seek out equally motivated, trail blazing collectors outside of my normal travel radius and try to set up high quality reciprocal trips....i really don't need 10^4 of the same thing.

so by finding sites through targeted exploration on a hunch, or by researching old literature, or thru reciprocal arrangements i've documented 703 sites as of last weekend which i deemed worth logging. since my batting average is about .250 while exploring, and i explore much of the time, considering all ways of ending up at a worthwhile site, i've probably visited another 1500 sites that didn't pan out. i hunt and explore not just in the huge state of texas, but all over the US and sometimes beyond. that's a lot of time and fuel!

the point of my ramblings is that although i've only been collecting seriously 11 years, covering over 250,000 fossil specific road miles in the
process, i've had a comprehensive enough field presence to notice a sharp uptick in remotely located human footprints and piles of discarded broken fossils in the last 5 years. i correlate this directly to easy availability of site specific literature online, as well as trumpeting of site specifics on various forums by collectors not understanding the net effect of these actions.

so, in my opinion, we are our own best friend as well as worst enemy when it comes to having productive areas to collect tomorrow and beyond. i still find it fun and refreshing, but we each have our own threshold of what type of experience is required to justify cracking the wallet for another field trip. there are certain venues that for my own purposes are no longer worth my time or gas to visit, due to being overrun with people. fossil parks fall squarely in this category. once it a venue has been repackaged for the masses with paved parking and easy trails, what i'd hope to find at the end of the trail is long gone. again, fossiling is a pursuit easily customized by each individual for his/her own objectives. at the end of my tank of fuel, i much prefer my small group that day to have first boots on the ground.

Edited March 6, 2014 by danwoehr

[Ray Eklund]

Dan I think you passed on important information on how to be a successful collector.

To those individuals who do not believe that there are undiscovered fossiliferous outcrops existing where they were not previously know... they do exist. I know from my own experiences. You might come empty handed for many trips, but get a better feel for the area. All it takes is a 100 square foot discovery to make it all worth while!

There has been private property purchased and broken up into 35 acre (mini ranches) at an area I will hold back for now. A petroleum geologist was familiar with the area and purchased the prime fossil locality. He now owns it and needs no permission for his passion. This same individual also located some Cretaceous ocean deposit with reptiles... but I do not know the status of it.

The MidWest and East have wonderful Paleozoic exposures that are all on private property. Knock on doors, get permission and if you do find an old or a new quarry... explain to the Landowner your intentions. Better yet... if there is vacant land available and you find that the fossils are worth its purchase price... it would not be impossible to gather a group of trusted friends to go in on a deal. Indiana and Ohio have wonderful books from the late 1800's with quarries that were exhausted or abandoned due to lack of sales that provided excellent Crinoids and Trilobites.

You do not think so. Well... when someone makes it known, if ever, you will be envious and be a WISHER and not a DOER.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Ray Eklund