Northern Sharks Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I saw several of these water bugs (forgot to write down the name) for sale at a show today. They seem to be intact and in good condition, but a few things "bug" me as to their authenticity. First, for insects, they seem to be in too good a condition. All had both wings, most also had a thorax and a head. Second, if I pressed on the wings, they moved as if made of thin plastic with an air space underneath. I don't know if this is a bad sign, or if this is the way the insects get preserved in the tar. As always, thanks in advance. There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 In the pic, it looks OK. Stuff in the "tar" is nor mineralized per se, it is permeated with bitumen, so don't expect it to be stoney. It does look like it was solvent-washed to clean it up; this may have loosened the elytra (front "wings") from adhering to the body. AFIK, they are common enough that fakery is not a problem. How much were they asking for them? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 i'd like to have a la brea fossil because they're so famous, but it's one type of fossil in matrix that i'm not at all confident of being able to discern fakery. oh, one more, amber. i'm just not sure how you can accurately i.d. genuine examples of fossils in bitumen or amber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bmorefossil Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 the one i bought for $4 it can be pulled apart is that a bad sign lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 These were $15 each There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Seems legit to me, its commonality and for a price that low I wouldn't be worried. Although low prices can be deceiving. I bought 15 trilobites fir 15 dollars once from a "safe" dealer... problem is he bought them in bulk from Morocco and was careless enough to not to check on them.. about 10 of the 15 were fakes.. but I got one really nice one which was real. That made up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 These were $15 each I'd pay that; I like La Brea fossils "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I'd pay that; I like La Brea fossils I think I have one out in my fossil storage, if you want one, 'Auspex'. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I think I have one out in my fossil storage, if you want one, 'Auspex'. Well, the thing about fossils is I want 'em all, but I only have room for bird fossils (barely). So far, I have three bird bones in tar, and am always looking for more. The name "La Brea" evokes for me my childhood fascination with fossils; it is probably the first location I could name and correctly associate with its fauna. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 That really is a nice one. Ive seen flats of these at certain shows years ago and you can run into these at that quality. For me, I never wanted one becuase they were so comon, but seeing that nice one makes me wish that I had gotton just one good one now. Dang it!!! RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makoken Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I didn't think it was possible to buy fossils from the tar pits, bugs or bones. They keep tight wraps on that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks all. I may have my answer here: http://www.tarpits.org/info/faq/faqfossil.html There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Here's one just listed: http://cgi.ebay.com/BB-FOSSIL-WATER-BEETLE...A1%7C240%3A1318 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Murphy Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Back in the 1980's, I traded some Texas Cretaceous echinoids with a member of the Southern California Paleontological Society for a group of fossils that included 4 specimens of predaceous water beetles collected from the Rancho LaBrea tar pits. The water beetles were all identified as Cybister sp. According to the trader, these water beetles are among the most common fossils found preserved in the pit deposits. There are apparently a number of tar deposits near Las Angeles and Bakersfield. Although collecting is not allowed from the deposits associated with the Page museum (the famous Rancho LaBrea pits), it seems that collecting has been allowed from the other deposits although I am sure that there are limits on what can be collected (such as vertebrate material). These water beetles, being predaceous,apparently lived in the thin water layers overlying the asphalt, attacking the entrapped animal carcasses and other aquatic life. Eventually, the beetles themselves became entrapped in the asphalt just as other animals had. I noticed that the name of the fossil beetle in eBay was Hydrophilus sp. Both Cybister and Hydrophilus are still considered valid names for water beetles and have living species. The specimens that I received had all of the the chitinous shell preserved but had none of the appendages were preserved. There was no replacement or permineralization of the specimens. Regards, Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 That ebay piece looks similar to the ones I was seeing at the show. Mike, on your pieces, if you press down on the wings, does it feel hollow underneath? There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 They should feel like a leathery, dried-out bug husk (which is what they are). "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Murphy Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I have not pressed down on any of the water beetle fossils from the tar pit material for fear of crushing the shell. I am fairly certain that they are hollow and not filled with anything but air. The fossils and the matrix are very light weight and I suspect that they would break easily. I am sure that the only way that they managed to preserve is because of the surrounding asphalt. In some of the oxidized asphalt deposits, they may be much harder. I treat them as very fragile specimens and have them carefully protected. This is interesting, however. Have any forum members observed the interiors of the fossil insects from the tar pits? The surface feels like like typical insect chitin. The preservation from the tar pits is amazing as plant material is preserved and even the bone material is not permineralized (although stained by the hydrocarbon) despite the age of 25000 to 40000 years. Regards, Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Murphy Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 As a side note, I have found that there is very little literature on the insects and other invertebrates from the LaBrea tar pits and the various other tar pits in California. I found one article specific on the insects and their preservation fron the tarpits by Scott Miller "Late Quaternary Insects of Rancho La Brea, California, USA". I have attched a copy of the paper. This will some more insight into these unusual fossils. Regards, Mike Miller_1997_Quaternary_Insects.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I didn't think it was possible to buy fossils from the tar pits, bugs or bones. They keep tight wraps on that stuff. No, you just can't get any of this material. There is none in circulation. Tight wraps! http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleoPutz Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 No, you just can't get any of this material. There is none in circulation. Tight wraps! Well that definitely is an interesting piece..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I think the La Brea tar pits have helped to fuel a many a kids imagination of the past. Many have dreamed of finding fossils from there and owning some. I know I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubonius Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 hello everyone, I am delighted to have seen these questions, because I love most the fossils inect (only coleoptera) , I would be very interested to know if it is really impossible to come into the possession of different species from that of pics, in particular I am already in possession this species and is very common to find at fairs, but if anyone knows give me some news on other species for sale by tar pits (coleoptera of all the world)other wells would be happy thanks exuse me if the message is not in right disscussion place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I saw several of these water bugs (forgot to write down the name) for sale at a show today. They seem to be intact and in good condition, but a few things "bug" me as to their authenticity. First, for insects, they seem to be in too good a condition. All had both wings, most also had a thorax and a head. Second, if I pressed on the wings, they moved as if made of thin plastic with an air space underneath. I don't know if this is a bad sign, or if this is the way the insects get preserved in the tar. As always, thanks in advance. I have gone through raw matrix before and found the beetles as you see them at a show though they are generally given a coating or two of Butvar and then given a slight polish while the matrix is dulled down a little for contrast. Believe me, you are seeing the best specimens at shows. When you go through matrix, you find a number of isolated wing covers, isolated body segments, and some smaller complete species (a few having a little natural iridescence preserved. Remember that they are not that old - maybe only 15,000 to 30,000 years old - so there is no mineral replacement nor flattening. I prepped a few years ago but "tar bugs" are not available in the numbers they once were. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, at least a couple of guys were digging and prepping them by the flat. It's messy, time-consuming work and got to the point that selling them at $2 each by the flat wasn't worth the trouble. Occasionally, you can find a decent grasshopper, dragonfly, or millipede in the tar. One prize I once saw was a perfect predaceous diving beetle. Someone prepped it on a nice pedestal of matrix. It looked cool. A Japanese dealer bought it and displayed it in his room at Denver but it wasn't for resale. All the beetles I've seen come from Kern County sites. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicranurus Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 In the pic, it looks OK. Stuff in the "tar" is nor mineralized per se, it is permeated with bitumen, so don't expect it to be stoney. It does look like it was solvent-washed to clean it up; this may have loosened the elytra (front "wings") from adhering to the body. AFIK, they are common enough that fakery is not a problem. How much were they asking for them? I have also one. In finland they cost 25 € = ca. 30 $. "It seems to me that the natural world is the greatest source of excitement; the greatest source of visual beauty; the greatest source of intellectual interest. It is the greatest source of so much in life that makes life worth living." -Sir David Attenborough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Never managed to run into those bugs at the right time. Interesting preservation. If I were ever so lucky to hunt the Tar I would love to find some. As it stands the only fossil I have from there is these Dire Wolf teeth (Photoshoped for detail.) Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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