JohnJ Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 A few weeks ago, I was revisiting a Georgetown formation site (Washita group / Albian). In a deductive search for a perfect Globator whitneyae, I was splitting a marly rock and out popped a matrix encrusted, walnut sized echinoid. What surprised me was the beautiful round tubercles peeking through the matrix. I carefully tucked it into my fossil belt and pursued more of the pyritized treasures of this formation. A few consultations and weeks later brings me here for the assistance of the worldwide resources in the Forum. I'd really appreciate a "Forum" review of this echinoid that has been tentatively identified as a Tylocidaris sp. However, I have not found any info that places Tylocidaris in the Lower Cretaceous of Texas. Again, this 1.125" diameter echinoid was found in the Georgetown formation (possibly the Denton or Weno member). Thanks for any help. Oral views Lateral views The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Apical views The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Well it's a real beauty. I see it is listed as Lower Cretaceous but not sure about Texas. Your Ech Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy1971 Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 WOW! That is a great looking echinoid! Nice job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobC Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 That is amazingly cool! I'm jealous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Well it's a real beauty. I see it is listed as Lower Cretaceous but not sureabout Texas. Your Ech Thanks. I like it. Roz, it seems all the Lower Cretaceous / Albian species occur outside the US. That's what has my fossil barometer rising.... The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 That is very beautiful, congrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evans Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Hey John, Amazing find you have. Its almost enough to motivate me to get out this weekend even if its going to be approaching 100 degrees F. Very nice. Brian Brian Evans For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobC Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I think it is amazing that nature can form such beautiful patterns and shapes--and that echinoid is a perfect example. I love Salenias! They are like little Christmas ornaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balanocidaris Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Oral views Those are apical views... and others, that you call oral views, are the apical... Usually, smallest tubercles are in adoral zone, those who we see in this 3 pictures, are bigger than the others pics... Also, the ambulacra tell us this. Ambulacra "borns" into apical zone, into ocelar plates, and are thin than in oral zone. About the species, well... Tylocidaris sp. was also my first look, because of its unperforate balls (well, my english it's quite poor... you know... here we call him "mamelones" ... may be "mamellons" ?. It's not the same thing the tubercles and mamellons... ). But really I don't know any of american species, only tell you "Tylocidaris" by comparation. Ensure the age of the formation, and if maybe this pretty cidaris comes from a higher strata, arranged to the lower parts by rain or similar... I don't know really if maybe a new species, you must research into bibliography... today, not impossible, is hard to find new species... Bye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Siphuncle Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 The funny part was that I had pronounced that site dead and handed it over to Johnny several months ago - he breathed new life into the place. Grüße, Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas "To the motivated go the spoils." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarthacensis Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 HEllo In North of Europe (England & France) we could find the Tylocidaris velifera (from Albian & lower cenomanian) Very similar to this specimen. I have sent to John pictures & diagnosis to check with his Tylocidaris Take care Sarthacensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceH Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I looked through 3 references for Texas echinoids....... nothing! If it's not new it's certainly rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceH Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 The Tylocidaris in the picture is Tylocidaris (Tylocidaris) clavigera (Mantell, 1822); NHM E46766. M. coranguinum Zone, Coniacian-Santonian, Upper Cretaceous; Bromley, Kent, UK. Oral view. The text from The Echinoid Directory page also says there is a Tylocidaris velifera (Agassiz & Desor, 1846): Upper Albian to Cenomanian, western Europe but no pic of it availible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommabetts Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Thanks. I like it. Roz, it seems all the Lower Cretaceous / Albian species occur outside the US. That's what has my fossil barometer rising.... I have a book that has it listed in Europe and in North America but that is the only reference I have found putting it in the US. The book is "FOSSILS" by Cyril Walker and David Ward. I have yet to find anything to put in Texas for sure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 The wait is over! That is quite an ornate specimen. Nice one, John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Those are apical views... and others, that you call oral views, are the apical... Usually, smallest tubercles are in adoral zone, those who we see in this 3 pictures, are bigger than the others pics... Also, the ambulacra tell us this. Ambulacra "borns" into apical zone, into ocelar plates, and are thin than in oral zone..... Well, lesson one is not start talking out of your periproct until you know top from bottom... I'll see if I can edit the labels The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Thanks everyone for the fantastic info. I really appreciate the responses. I have some reading and analyzing to do! The rock that this echinoid "popped" out of was definitely from the Georgetown formation. It was not redeposited from Upper Cretaceous strata, so we'll see how significant that becomes. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 T. hardouini (Desor, 1855); Danian ... South USA? London Museum of Natural History don't know. maybe your echie's parents had longevity genes. or maybe somebody like me found it later and dropped it earlier. or maybe the little echie himself was a joker. was there a tiny shovel next to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Here's a useful timeline http://www.stratigraphy.org/upload/ISChart2008.pdf. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Murphy Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 John: I see that you finally brought the Tylocidaris sp to the attention of the Forum. I see that balanocidaris and Sarthacensis both believe that it is Tylocidaris; this makes me feel more confident in my original identification of Tylocidaris back in April. There are only 2 or 3 references to the Tylocidaris specimens in the US, and the referenced specimens are from the Paleocene only. Tylocidaris hardouini (Desor, 1855) has been identified from the Salt Mountain LS in Alabama; Tylocidaris macneilli Cooke, 1959 from the Clayton Fm in Henry Co., AL and Tylocidaris walcotti (Clark, 1891) from the Vincentown Sandstone in Glouchester Co., NJ. Although Tylocidaris is reported from the Cretaceous in a number of European and Middle Eastern localities, it has not been reported previously from the Cretaceous of the United States. It has not been officially reported from Texas although I have some individual interambulacral plates and cidaroid spines that I have regarded as Tylocidaris (?) sp. from the Kincaid Formation, early Paleocene (Thanetian), Rains County, Texas. As I advised you previously, the apical scar pattern, the ambulacral pattern and the imperforate tubercles all indicate the probability of being Tylocidaris. I am not surprised that Tylocidaris could be found in the Cretaceous of Texas because it is found in the Paleocene elsewhere in the United States and even more so in the southern United States. I feel that your specimen probably represents a new species since it is from the Washitan rather than from the Paleogene. I would suggest sending the photographs of the specimen to James sprinkle at the University of Texas and possibly to George Phillips at Mississippian Museum of Science to get "expert" advise from echinoderm specialists. Between them, they can probably give you some pretty good information. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balanocidaris Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Good advice, give the photos and info about strata to an expert... But only that.... photos!! keep the Tylocidaris sp. at your hands!! Congratulations by your finding. Bye!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 Wow, I just got "echinoid skin" after reading this! Mike, I really appreciate your early ID and advice. I'll get in touch with Mr. Sprinkle and Mr. Phillips. Dan and Roz had both mentioned George Phillips. If anyone has photos of related species in their collection, it would be wonderful to see them. I'll keep everyone posted on any updates. I know everyone is not necessarily excited about echinoids, but I still think it's cool that a bunch of people can hammer out an ID discussion on keyboards from around the world. I'm not currently a member of any club, so the Forum is where I find knowledgable advice from others. Thank you. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Wow, I just got "echinoid skin" after reading this! Mike, I really appreciate your early ID and advice. I'll get in touch with Mr. Sprinkle and Mr. Phillips. Dan and Roz had both mentioned George Phillips. If anyone has photos of related species in their collection, it would be wonderful to see them. I'll keep everyone posted on any updates. I know everyone is not necessarily excited about echinoids, but I still think it's cool that a bunch of people can hammer out an ID discussion on keyboards from around the world. I'm not currently a member of any club, so the Forum is where I find knowledgable advice from others. Thank you. Wait John I did find in my boxes something that could help you, this i a Tylocidaris clavigera obviously, and as you can see the your is very close, so the Mike ID is right. Will see what experts says and be ready to donate it, because as Mike sad, could be a new bug http://www.mbfossilcrabs.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 I'm still looking for a spine...they can be fascinating too. MB is that a personal find? The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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