Trilobite / Morocco

[Trig]

Hello...2 quick questions ???

I've read through several Posts regarding the varying colors of Trilobites. Also, that "Morocco" is a

target type for scammers. Some comments regarding "Shoe Polish"...etc...I looks real...is it...???

And, as a general guide line...Is $30-$50 US a fools price or in the reasonable range...???

2nd, I assume this Ammonite to be Real...The question is regarding the "Internal Damage/Injury"...???

Is it a reasonable assumption that this little guy was on the "Lunch" menu but survived for a while after

the attack and making good on the escape...???

Thanks Much...Trig

[aeon.rocks]

Hollardops looks real, as far as I can see from photo the details are there. Could have some restored parts...

Sometimes trilobites have different (shades of) colors naturaly, so best to know what you are buying, always check for details, eye-facets, break lines etc. In this case it looks like it has been coated, which doesn`t mean that it`s restored (I sometimes use it just to bring out details) but could be to cover up restored parts. Shoe polish could be used below the coating, but I don`t think it has much resto work done to it, if any. Restored trilobite specimens are more or less a common thing in the market however, Moroccans do it, USA preparators do it, Russian preparators do it etc. Sometimes shell pieces are missing like in the pygidium of this specimen, which is not restored here. It`s a common trilo in the market, not really worth faking! But If you want to be 100% sure about any restored parts, give it an acetone bath (will not harm any real parts, but will remove coatings or colors) and post another photo here after. It`s a quick commercial prep work (but still nicer as most you see pooping up in this type of topics) of a common trilo, so that is a reasonable price range.

In case if that was a general guide type question regarding prices of moroccan trilobites - 30-50$ will generaly get you a few common small species, but mostly rough or commercialy preped specimens of common species... And it will also get you fakes of rarer spiny species. Always keep in mind that it takes a lot of effort and time to find and prep trilobites and as always quality has it`s price...

[Scylla]

The ammonite looks real. I think the internal damage was post mortem, but I can't be sure. If something ate the guy before death, you would expect the outer shell to be crushed and likely dissociated. This type of damage appears to have occurred after burial so the fragments stayed together. Perhaps external pressure ruptured the septations that did not infill with debris.

[Trig]

The ammonite looks real. I think the internal damage was post mortem, but I can't be sure. If something ate the guy before death, you would expect the outer shell to be crushed and likely dissociated. This type of damage appears to have occurred after burial so the fragments stayed together. Perhaps external pressure ruptured the septations that did not infill with debris.

Thanks for your input...I know almost nothing on this subject...but I do listen & learn...

I had considered "Pressure" and have since seen that cited elsewhere...I guess my Pea-Pick'in Brain felt pressure damage might be more "Total Failure"...

But...as in all things structural...partial failure doesn't always equal total failure...I also considered a parasite digg'in around in the back of house...???

I did see this paragraph on Wiki...But I guess the pressure seems more likely...Maybe I should buy the little guy and give it a good home

'Many ammonite shells have been found with round holes once interpreted as a result of limpets attaching themselves to the shells. The triangular formation of the holes, their size and shape, and their presence on both sides of the shells, corresponding to the upper and lower jaws, is evidence of the bite of a medium-sized mosasaur preying upon ammonites."...

Also...I realize this question is just a Wee-Bit off topic for this Board...Maybe I'll start another on Q & A...I'd love to know what the basic composition of the material

in the chambers is....what I would describe as looking like "Amber"...maybe a soupy brine with lots of organic goop in it...???...Thanks Again...Trig

[Trig]

Hollardops looks real, as far as I can see from photo the details are there. Could have some restored parts...

Sometimes trilobites have different (shades of) colors naturaly, so best to know what you are buying, always check for details, eye-facets, break lines etc. In this case it looks like it has been coated, which doesn`t mean that it`s restored (I sometimes use it just to bring out details) but could be to cover up restored parts. Shoe polish could be used below the coating, but I don`t think it has much resto work done to it, if any. Restored trilobite specimens are more or less a common thing in the market however, Moroccans do it, USA preparators do it, Russian preparators do it etc. Sometimes shell pieces are missing like in the pygidium of this specimen, which is not restored here. It`s a common trilo in the market, not really worth faking! But If you want to be 100% sure about any restored parts, give it an acetone bath (will not harm any real parts, but will remove coatings or colors) and post another photo here after. It`s a quick commercial prep work (but still nicer as most you see pooping up in this type of topics) of a common trilo, so that is a reasonable price range.

In case if that was a general guide type question regarding prices of moroccan trilobites - 30-50$ will generaly get you a few common small species, but mostly rough or commercialy preped specimens of common species... And it will also get you fakes of rarer spiny species. Always keep in mind that it takes a lot of effort and time to find and prep trilobites and as always quality has it`s price...

Thanks Much...to clarify...that Trilobite was a completed Auction which sold for $50 US...I have not yet taken a bite of the Apple...yet...!!!

Your input is a big help...I've also seen more than 1 seller who gladly direct your view to anything they consider a repair It seems the small

repairs are quite common ?...several repairs they pointed to I probably wouldn't have seen without a Loupe and the item in hand...

Thanks Again...& when I pull the trigger I'll post an image of the little monster I select...I did see one I really like...as follows...

Regards...Trig

Edited May 17, 2016 by Trig

[Trig]

Too Bad I don't have an extra $10,000US lay'in around...maybe they'd consider an offer of $9300US...???

I'd guess many of you Good People have seen this little beauty...did they use a Transporter to Beam it out of the rock...???

Trig ...Did I get it right...?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Trig

[aeon.rocks]

It seems the small repairs are quite common ?...several repairs they pointed to I probably wouldn't have seen without a Loupe and the item in hand...

Most bugs are found by breaking/splitting rock, so they are usually found in 2 or more pieces, which are then glued back together... Sometimes pieces of shell can fly off while splitting the rocks, like in the case of Hollardops you show here (pygidium area). Sometimes specimens are found with damage that was maybe sustained postmortem in high-energy sedimentation environment before or during fossilization, like i.e. broken spines. Other times fossilized remains are molts... Etc. About what level of restoration/repair is acceptable there are as many different opinions as there are different collectors I guess.

But to answer your question, fossils are rarely found perfect and if you consider glueing a repair, then almost all trilobites are repaired! Minor restorations such as filling the cracks or small patches of missing shell are just part of the process of doing them justice in prep imho and ok as long as such restorations are disclosed to the buyers. But not all specimens are restored. An example... Yellowish colored spots are where shell has been restored, pretty common thing for russian trilobites when inspected in UV light. Same goes for Moroccan or USA trilobites. Not all of them of course.

Too Bad I don't have an extra $10,000US lay'in around...maybe they'd consider an offer of $9300US...???

I'd guess many of you Good People have seen this little beauty...did they use a Transporter to Beam it out of the rock...???

Most collectors would argue that Boedaspis specimens in the market are highly overpriced. Get in line, we all want one, but almost nobody can afford one, thus I guess most of these are selling at that price forever, but who would blame the sellers. It`s a rare species and takes a lot of time, luck, right equipment and skills to prep one like that. And surgical-precision-patience...

Something similar to beam-transporter, hehe. Lots of time and fine needle work, mostly. If you have doubts, that russian Boedaspis is very real and i would say spines are mostly real, but not easy to prep free-standing without breaking. I preped a little spiny monster shown below not so long ago, so you can trust me when I say that there is a reason why real spiny trilobites sell for thousands of dollars and plastic fakes for 50 bucks... First two photos show condition before glueing the pieces back together:

Edited May 17, 2016 by aeon.rocks

[Trig]

Most bugs are found by breaking/splitting rock, so they are usually found in 2 or more pieces, which are then glued back together... Sometimes pieces of shell can fly off while splitting the rocks, like in the case of Hollardops you show here (pygidium area). Sometimes specimens are found with damage that was maybe sustained postmortem in high-energy sedimentation environment before or during fossilization, like i.e. broken spines. Other times fossilized remains are molts... Etc. About what level of restoration/repair is acceptable there are as many different opinions as there are different collectors I guess.

But to answer your question, fossils are rarely found perfect and if you consider glueing a repair, then almost all trilobites are repaired! Minor restorations such as filling the cracks or small patches of missing shell are just part of the process of doing them justice in prep imho and ok as long as such restorations are disclosed to the buyers. But not all specimens are restored. An example... Yellowish colored spots are where shell has been restored, pretty common thing for russian trilobites when inspected in UV light. Same goes for Moroccan or USA trilobites. Not all of them of course.

6-9procentov.jpg

Most collectors would argue that Boedaspis specimens in the market are highly overpriced. Get in line, we all want one, but almost nobody can afford one, thus I guess most of these are selling at that price forever, but who would blame the sellers. It`s a rare species and takes a lot of time, luck, right equipment and skills to prep one like that. And surgical-precision-patience...

Something similar to beam-transporter, hehe. Lots of time and fine needle work, mostly. If you have doubts, that russian Boedaspis is very real and i would say spines are mostly real, but not easy to prep free-standing without breaking. I preped a little spiny monster shown below not so long ago, so you can trust me when I say that there is a reason why real spiny trilobites sell for thousands of dollars and plastic fakes for 50 bucks... First two photos show condition before glueing the pieces back together:

5.jpg11.jpg38.JPG

Wow...I wouldn't have guessed in my wildest dreams that little rascal was REAL...

So Much for my snarky remark regarding it's authenticity...I'm never afraid to be wrong...Only not to learn...

Seems I can't get anywhere in the vicinity of this Forum without learning something new...

You must have awfully steady hands and an abundance of patience...

I do have Ultra-Violet Lights in both Short & Long Wavelengths...Thanks...Trig

[Ludwigia]

Your ammonite is not at all internally damaged or injured. The polished section shows clearly the septa of the phragmocone within the inner whorls and at the end of the spiral is the living chamber. The shell was then mostly filled with sediment, including pieces of shell from other fauna, after the soft parts had rotted away. This was then later mineralized during the diagenesis. The remaining cavities allowed for the building of crystals within them.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Ludwigia

[aplomado]

Real Madagascar ammonites are very common and inexpensive... a real bargain in the fossil world!

[Trig]

Your ammonite is not at all internally damaged or injured. The polished section shows clearly the septa of the phragmocone within the inner whorls and at the end of the spiral is the living chamber. The shell was then mostly filled with sediment, including pieces of shell from other fauna, after the soft parts had rotted away. This was then later mineralized during the diagenesis. The remaining cavities allowed for the building of crystals within them.

Real Madagascar ammonites are very common and inexpensive... a real bargain in the fossil world!

Thank You Both...I've got a few Split Pairs on the way...and any I might choose to let go will make nice little gifts...

I guess my confusion on the idea of "damage" was that those 4 or 5...Septae...look like they've been "scrambled" into

what I guess is a Soupy Brine Of Organics & Minerals(?)that flows back and fills the chambers...???

Trig

One Of My Father's Old Favorites..."If At First You Don't Fricassee, Fry, Fry A Hen"...

[Ludwigia]

I guess my confusion on the idea of "damage" was that those 4 or 5...Septae...look like they've been "scrambled" into

what I guess is a Soupy Brine Of Organics & Minerals(?)that flows back and fills the chambers...???

Trig

One Of My Father's Old Favorites..."If At First You Don't Fricassee, Fry, Fry A Hen"...

That soupy brine is in the living chamber. The smaller compartments towards the center are the septae, which in turn all together make up the phragmocone.

[Trig]

That soupy brine is in the living chamber. The smaller compartments towards the center are the septae, which in turn all together make up the phragmocone.

I think I need to go re-read a page I'd seen somewhere on the various parts and pieces...

I thought the soupy brine was what the "Amber Colored" fossilized material in the chambers was...and that the septae were the "Walls"

dividing the chambers...???...and right now I'm off to the Dictionary...phragmocone...

[JohnJ]

I think I need to go re-read a page I'd seen somewhere on the various parts and pieces...

I thought the soupy brine was what the "Amber Colored" fossilized material in the chambers was...and that the septae were the "Walls"

dividing the chambers...???...and right now I'm off to the Dictionary...phragmocone...

The amber mineral is calcite. It has its own characteristics and crystal forms. Although it does replace parts of the original ammonite, in most cases, its crystals grow to fill interior voids. Many ammonites were long dead before their shells were completely buried in ocean sediments. The calcite crystals may enclose broken shell fragments that drifted into the ammonite's interior chambers, but they don't represent a fossilized "soupy brine".

[Trig]

The amber mineral is calcite. It has its own characteristics and crystal forms. Although it does replace parts of the original ammonite, in most cases, its crystals grow to fill interior voids. Many ammonites were long dead before their shells were completely buried in ocean sediments. The calcite crystals may enclose broken shell fragments that drifted into the ammonite's interior chambers, but they don't represent a fossilized "soupy brine".

JohnJ...That is fascinating...I hope you don't mind but I'm going to "Paste" this to another Post I made in Q & A...

It's essentially the same question expanded a bit...And yes...he can be taught...

[Wrangellian]

....

Most collectors would argue that Boedaspis specimens in the market are highly overpriced. Get in line, we all want one, but almost nobody can afford one, thus I guess most of these are selling at that price forever, but who would blame the sellers. It`s a rare species and takes a lot of time, luck, right equipment and skills to prep one like that. And surgical-precision-patience...

Something similar to beam-transporter, hehe. Lots of time and fine needle work, mostly. If you have doubts, that russian Boedaspis is very real and i would say spines are mostly real, but not easy to prep free-standing without breaking. I preped a little spiny monster shown below not so long ago, so you can trust me when I say that there is a reason why real spiny trilobites sell for thousands of dollars and plastic fakes for 50 bucks... First two photos show condition before glueing the pieces back together:

5.jpg11.jpg38.JPG

Nice work, I can understand why those spiny ones cost so much when completely freed of matrix, and there's no way I could afford one - I'd settle for a half-prepped one like your first pic, the work is still good and you can see most of the bug, not fully exposed but the job is better than many you see for sale from Morocco at that stage of exposure where less care was taken in the prepping. In other words, there never seems to be a middle ground between Wow$$$$$ and "yuck"!

[aeon.rocks]

Thanks Wrangellian! Middle ground? I believe there is to some degree, but depends what you consider middle ground and what lower and higher! Ok, usually with crazy-spiny-stuff as with other things in life, time and quality costs money, always, even in Morocco, so not cheap, but still cheaper as... It`s usually just not possible to sell the spiny ones bargain cheap, when preped patiently, even if you find unpreped yourself. But imho asking 10000$ for a spiny trilobite is still very very optimisticly overpriced, so I don`t even consider those to be for sale...

If you prep commercialy, as I`m sure you know, have to keep the price vs time vs result in mind. A good Koneprusia with most details preserved will in any case take close to or over 100 hours of careful work. I needed over 130 hours. You can do it in 30 hours but unless you are really good and lucky, most likely you are not prepping it, but destroying it! It took over 30h just to prep to the state in 2. photo pictured above, where all parts are still not glued together. Goes faster, but that also means more fine-cracks, which result in breaking the spines as you prep them. If you multiply the number of prep-hours with a figure ($$/hour) you find suitable for a skilled profesional or precise lab work (without adding other costs, such as taxes, electricity or costs of raw material), you are at 1000$ already. If you charge minimal rate (i could be wrong but think in US thats around 10$/hour, right? In comparison, how much does a hairdresser or a dentist charge you per hour?). Most of these I have seen costs between 1000-4000$, depending on quality and other factors and who`s selling... If you are prepping these and not lucky the result is not worth half of it most of the times (disarticulated or missing parts...), but usually you can get a decent spiny Moroccan trilobite for less as 1000$, which is pretty impressive, considering nobody is willing to work for free. Funny thing is, even if you work almost for free, someone will still hope to pay you less or expect you to do a better job, hehe. It`s just how things are.

I imagine a Boedaspis sp. takes a similar time to prep fully as Koneprusia, perhaps even a bit less due to a softer matrix, donno, but I am confident to say 10000$ is way overpriced, but also supposed extremely rare, so there we go again... You can find about 2 or 3 for sale online atm and I could be wrong, but guess that`s close to the number of all Boedaspis specimens currently in the market? But always hard to talk about prices or intrinsic value without reference to its market value. Guess they are worth it, if they sell.

Anyway, I started writing this comment, but just wanted to say that trilobites you usually see in the market from Morocco are usually crazy cheap, so everyone can collect trilobites. Middle ground or not, there are plenty of opportunities. Not-so-crazy-spiny, but still fantastic and even rare non-spiny species from Morocco are mostly very affordable. There are plenty of fakes around, but not all moroccan trilobites are fake. Isn`t it interesting that the majority of all trilobites that you see in topics "is it real?" come from Morocco? There are more or about the same number of restored Russian bugs in the market as there are fake or restored Moroccan bugs, but seems that nobody questions their value, maybe because when you pay 200$, you expect it to be real as a contrary to a rough specimen for 20$, donno. Prep-time is underrated anyway, especially in Morocco. It`s easy to prep a NY shale phacops in 30 min and sell it for 20-50$. Sounds reasonable, right? A phacops or a smilar common species from Morocco is found in a hard matrix and usually costs the same 20-50$, even though it takes closer to a dozzen of hours at best or a couple hours of quick commercial "brute force prep" at worst. As you mentioned, some Moroccan preparators (most that I know are very skilled however) have their own quick way of finding the trilo in the rock, which usually means brute force and burning the details, but that`s middle ground too imho, it costs less and takes less time to prep. Just my opinion.

Edited May 20, 2016 by aeon.rocks