Why I Started Selling Fossils

[megateeth]

I am sitting here watching the rain and thinking about this because of a conversation I had with a friend. Since I am trying to put off all of the things I should be doing, posting this seemed like a great idea. (By the way I found some killer stuff this weekend which I will post later if I can).

I was talking to a friend today that occasionally dives for fossils. He was saying that he would never sell any of his finds. I sometimes think that he thinks that I have less of an appreciation of or love for fossils than he does because I sell a lot of what I collect.

The thing is that I love the hunt for fossils as much as if not more than actually possessing them. When I got my boat and started diving locally for fossils I tried going out every weekend, but my wife thought that was overkill so it was more like once every other weekend. She thought that since I had a hundred or more Meg teeth, why go out every weekend and get more. She said (and she was correct) that there was no more room under the bed for any more boxes of fossils.

I told her that I would sell some to make room under the bed for new teeth. I remember her saying in disbelief "You think people are actually going to buy them?" I started selling a few on eBay and met some really cool collectors in the process. Because I was in the computer field I decided to try building a website. Because of the extra money that selling fossils brings in I now get to go diving up to four days a week instead of once every other weekend. Selling off many of them seems like a small price to pay for being able to go hunt for fossils that often. I still get to keep the cool stuff.

This week I dove Tues, Thurs, Fri Sat and today. I never get tired of it and I would go out again right now if I could. Now if only I could just shed that pesky job.

[Gatorman]

I don't see any reason not to sell when you have extra.

[Nicholas]

I agree I think if you can make some money off something you love than you are living a dream.

[Hawkeye]

The thing is that I love the hunt for fossils as much as if not more than actually possessing them. When I got my boat and started diving locally for fossils I tried going out every weekend, but my wife thought that was overkill so it was more like once every other weekend.

Amen brother! For me the biggest thrill is the hunt and then prepping the fossils when I get home. My wife doesn't mind if I have hobbies but she does mind if those hobbies are a drain on our finances. If I can sell some fossils to be able to collect more fossils then that's what I'm going to do. I paid for last years's trip out west by selling some of the extra Green River fish from the trip the year before. Some of the trilobites from last year went to pay for the airscribe I bought after the trip. As long as I can almost get to the break even point then my wife and I will both be happy.

[sharkdentist]

You do not need to worry about it at all you get to make great connections in the fossil world by selling some of your stuff and you always get to keep what you want. By the way, see you this weekend coming try not to forget the item I am looking for we talked about have a good day.

[megateeth]

You do not need to worry about it at all you get to make great connections in the fossil world by selling some of your stuff and you always get to keep what you want. By the way, see you this weekend coming try not to forget the item I am looking for we talked about have a good day.

The 7.5" blue Meg? Don't worry, it has your name on it....Oh you meant the other fossil I will switch your name to that one instead.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

Doesn't matter if I croak with 3.5 million or 4 million fossils....why not let the hobby support itself in terms of fuel and then pay for all my personal entertainment as well? Heck, maybe I can make enough to pay for child support too....Keep all the best, sell the rest. I sell not only to private collectors but also to museums and universities. So along with my personal gain, the body of science benefits as well. I still make significant donations when a certain specimen is too important for my collection, but tend to get it appraised by a dealer so I can take maximum justifiable charitable donation writeoff come tax time...why not stick it back to the tax man?

[Frank Menser]

Got to agree on this. Hunting and finding a particular fossil is to me the same as big game hunting. With the exception of my "core" collection the rest become superfilous. So why not sell them especially when they finance the hunt?

[megateeth]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. One of the reasons that I posted this is I remember a thread where some people talking about the "greedy fossil dealers". I may be misquoting but it had something to do with one of the laws getting changed. Anyhow after talking with my friend I got to thinking about the Fossil Forum and wondered if people thought that way and why. My friend does not think of it as greed but for some reason he seems to think it is selling out (not his exact words).

Bill

[HumboldtMike]

I have to chime in on the negative. Maybe what you do is fine. There are some fossils that are so common, or are found in a situation that hardly anyone else would attempt (like your underwater teeth maybe), that nobody would miss them. Other fossils, not so. It really bugs me, for example, to find crab concretions for sale that I know came from places where I went and got skunked. Not cool -- just to pay for a new tool or gas money or to justify it to the spouse.

There are other reasons that I avoid the trade in fossils, but I won't get into all that. I encourage people to high-grade fossils at a site for personal use, and then leave some for the next person. I donate extras, or give to kids, if I high-grade later.

Anyway, I hope folks here deal fossils with appropriate discretion. Maybe try a little catch and release...

Mike

[Cris]

I'm very glad you posted this, megateeth. I also completely agree with you... There ARE the dealers out there that don't have much appreciation for what they deal in, though... I see dealers all the time that see fossils as nothing but a way to make money... Those are the dealers that I don't like to see.. A person who collects a lot and sells off extras, I see nothing at all wrong with. In the future, I have plans to sell off my extras and keep whatever I want to have in my collection... Trust me, I am in awe over everything I pick up... But once I run out of space to keep things, I don't want to have to stop collecting....and making some money to support my hobby while making room for new stuff AND perhaps helping interest someone else in the hobby (a fellow collector IS getting the fossil, after all) sounds very, very nice. I think a lot of your casual collectors don't realize how quickly space can become an issue and you're forced to get rid of stuff.

[Terry Dactyll]

I suppose as collectors, on occasion we sometimes frown upon those that collect fossils purely to sell.... 'sold their soul to the devil' how could they sell fossils etc etc..... but being realistic, we all end up wanting the best we can find or if your an 'arm chair collector'... can afford....... and its a shame the lower grade fossils would otherwise just gets stuffed in boxes never to be seen again..... so I dont see anything wrong in what your doing, your making someone who cant dive, but loves fossils very happy..... I have one of your teeth myself, bought off ebay a while ago..... sometime in the past.... and the drink cooler..... I still have that to somewhere although my daughter always claims that is hers ......

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

OK here is my mixed response. I see nothing wrong with someone going out and finding fossils and selling them. I don't like someone going to a site and "vacuuming" up "all" the specimens they can

(commercial or non-commercial hunter). I would hope that dealers/collectors would go to a site, collect the commercially more valuable ones, and leave the less valuable specimens alone. But what also bugs me about a lot of the shark teeth collectors is that they take all the pieces they find. Why? I know that once in a blue moon you can find a piece to match another piece found earlier, but come on, it won't have the value of a whole one without a repair to it (this statement excludes very large or rare specimens). I see postings on this forum all the time of Megs and other shark teeth that are only 1/16 of the whole thing!! When I collect, I pick up only whole teeth to keep with the following exceptions: new to my collection, rare, 90% or better, has some characteristic that makes it stand out - like size). Even when I find a 2+ inch Goblin, if it is missing the tip of the one root I don't keep it. 75% of a Ric... nope it stays at the site.

As to numbers of teeth.... I would get very seriously bored collecting in the same formations for the same types of fossils all the time. That is why in the last year I have gone to MD, NC, FL, MS, TN, and of course AL. And yes, I know that some people can't travel as much as I can (even though I don't know why since I have only weekends and 13 days of vacation per year).

Wow, can you tell that we are in between semesters here and that I have too much time on my hands.

[Auspex]

Del, you're a better man than I. Back when I was doing shark's teeth in the Calvert Fm., I pocketed everything I saw; just couldn't help it (leave a tooth? That's crazy!). That was, of course, beachcombing, which made that mindset easy.

On the Forum trip last year, I still picked up all the teeth I saw, but I wasn't hunting very hard and I gave most of them to the others in the group. I now hunt with a "silver pick" from the comfort of home, but the urge to buy every bird fossil I find is constrained only by my complete lack of wealth. I guess I'm acquisitive by nature.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

I have a good time prospecting for new sites, often finding sites that have never been hunted or at least have been fallow for quite some time. Since I don't publicize my site info, I figure I can hit my self found sites as hard or not as I feel inclined, and not affect anyone's collecting prospects either way. Then if I sell something from one of these sites, again, I've not stepped on the toes of my fellow collectors. Also, I don't vacuum well known sites or sites I was shown by individual collectors. Lots of virgin sites out there, just depends on how much effort and expense you are willing to put toward finding them.....then after all that I see no problem with making the hobby pay for itself.

[Hawkeye]

It really bugs me, for example, to find crab concretions for sale that I know came from places where I went and got skunked. Not cool -- just to pay for a new tool or gas money or to justify it to the spouse.

Mike

I suppose this was aimed at me since those are the arguments that I made.

The Green River fish and trilobites that I sold, I had to pay to dig those at private sites. Why should I not be allowed to recoup some of my money?

[Phoenixflood]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. One of the reasons that I posted this is I remember a thread where some people talking about the "greedy fossil dealers". I may be misquoting but it had something to do with one of the laws getting changed. Anyhow after talking with my friend I got to thinking about the Fossil Forum and wondered if people thought that way and why. My friend does not think of it as greed but for some reason he seems to think it is selling out (not his exact words).

Bill

I used to want to keep everything that I had and would never sell anything, but, like you, the fossils started to pile up. I found myself being picky on the beach when I found smaller shark teeth. I would leave some for others to find. The specimens that I found that were pristine I kept for myself, other fossils that I have extra of I found myself trading for fossils that I did not have. I also broke down and sold some of my teeth; one was the first meg I ever found! But, I know that when others buy fossils it is for their own enjoyment.

If you are as fortunate as you to have an influx of fossils, why not benifit from it and sell to those who will enjoy them or don't have access to them. However, there are those that have access to sites and explote them completely, decimating the site and wiping out the resources for other collectors for profit.

I mean I guess it's like finding gold, silver or platinum. You put in your work, but you techinically find it for free.

[megateeth]

Del, you're a better man than I. Back when I was doing shark's teeth in the Calvert Fm., I pocketed everything I saw; just couldn't help it (leave a tooth? That's crazy!). That was, of course, beachcombing, which made that mindset easy.

On the Forum trip last year, I still picked up all the teeth I saw, but I wasn't hunting very hard and I gave most of them to the others in the group. I now hunt with a "silver pick" from the comfort of home, but the urge to buy every bird fossil I find is constrained only by my complete lack of wealth. I guess I'm acquisitive by nature.

Me too. When I dive and find a bunch of broken teeth I at least feel like I found something cool. Also with no vis I found several teeth that I thought were broken only to find that it was deformed when I returned to the boat. Some of my best teeth are ones I thought were broken. Here is one from a few weeks ago. I thought it was broken when I found it.

Plus where I dive the currents cover and incover things all the time. What I leave behind may be burried tomorrow anyhow.

[megateeth]

Other fossils, not so. It really bugs me, for example, to find crab concretions for sale that I know came from places where I went and got skunked.

There are other reasons that I avoid the trade in fossils, but I won't get into all that. I encourage people to high-grade fossils at a site for personal use, and then leave some for the next person. I donate extras, or give to kids, if I high-grade later.

Anyway, I hope folks here deal fossils with appropriate discretion. Maybe try a little catch and release...

Mike

What is appropriate discretion? Where do you draw the line? I understand your points but those people selling the crab concretions may not be able to afford to hunt if they do not recoup some money. The person buying it may never have seen one if they did not buy it. Who knows if anyone would have ever found that piece. It could have been buried or destroyed.

I am not arguing your point and your donations are appreciated I am sure. I often give fossils away and enjoy that more than selling them if I feel the person getting it really appreciates it. I just find it strange when people judge others actions without knowing the whole story. I am not saying you do that but I have met people that do.

[HumboldtMike]

What is appropriate discretion? Where do you draw the line? I understand your points but those people selling the crab concretions may not be able to afford to hunt if they do not recoup some money. The person buying it may never have seen one if they did not buy it. Who knows if anyone would have ever found that piece. It could have been buried or destroyed.

I am not arguing your point and your donations are appreciated I am sure. I often give fossils away and enjoy that more than selling them if I feel the person getting it really appreciates it. I just find it strange when people judge others actions without knowing the whole story. I am not saying you do that but I have met people that do.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the meg teeth you find diving in zero vis are probably appropriate to sell -- at least a few of. Meg teeth are relatively common and easily identified to species, and probably nobody else but a commercial collector is going to find them down in the muck (i.e., you aren't taking the thrill of the find from a newbie or child). I agree in this case that the wonder and excitement of a really cool fossil can be achieved appropriately.

However, the part of your story that got me was that you now go collecting several times as often BECAUSE you are able to SELL some fossils. That same scenario also applies to the folks who are selling the crab concretions. So even though they may not scour out every site, they still reduce my (or my kid's) chances of finding a nice crab because they collect more BECAUSE they SELL.

To define "appropriate discretion" obviously requires a lot of personal opinion. But here are the questions I'd ask myself before selling, or collecting something that I might end up selling:

Am I collecting this only because I can sell it?

Is this something that I already have a nice example of?

Is there a chance that some kid or newbie (or that jerk HumboldtMike) might find it if I don't take it?

Do I know for sure what species it is?

Is it very common?

Is it common at this location?

Is there any chance that the fossil might be scientifically significant? (Selling to an academic museum excepted, of course.)

Am I willing to give accurate and specific location information so that the fossil doesn't lose that part of its scientific value in the trade?

Am I willing to sacrifice some credibility with academic paleotologists because I am known as a dealer?

Am I sure of the laws regarding selling from the site?

Do I need to sell a fossil to feed the kids?

The argument about running out of storage space is pretty weak, in my opinion. I have the same problem -- had it for years. Leave more stuff behind in the field, donate stuff to schools and kids, etc.

The argument about the fossil not being appreciated is pretty weak too. You can give the arm-chair/former/too young collectors just as much appreciation with a gift and avoid some of the other pitfalls I describe below.

There are some good reasons (again, in my opinion) to avoid selling fossils at all. I have decided for myself to not start down the slippery slope. There are a lot of gray areas, and potential mistakes and pitfalls -- especially if you don't have a thorough understanding of the fossil and/or location.

A recent thread asked whether there were any academic paleontologists on the site. I'm pretty sure they have their own academic forums, so might not consider visiting amature collector sites. But they also are unlikely to want to be associated with this site specifically because it is heavily associated with fossil dealing. Even if all of you sell "appropriately," the stigma is there. Not to mention some of the very unreliable information that has come across from pranksters lately...

When I worked for the Dept. of Interior, I reviewed our draft regulations for fossil collecting on US federal lands long before they went out for public review. The original draft (mid 1990s) lumped commercial and hobby collectors, and it looked to me like they might very well not distinguish between the two user groups in final rule making. Which would have lead to the option of closing federal lands to all fossil collectors, rather than distinguishing between personal use and commercial. (If you live out west you probably rely heavily on federal land for collecting.) I'm sure glad they opted to allow personal use inverts, but to restrict commercial collecting. The outcome was closer than you might think -- so be careful not to blow it for us...

A lot of the crab material from Washington comes from private timberlands. I hope you all realize how lucky you are that this land is open to the public. Most tracts of timberland are off-limits here in California. I don't think it is legal to sell those crab fossils if you don't have permission from the landowner. At the very least, the timber companies are likely to frown upon it, and it may lead to access closures -- especially if they associate any road or habitat damage with commercial collecting.

Most fossil specimens/collections must have accurate and reliable, and very specific, site info to be scientifically valuable. Pretty much anything that enters the informal commercial realm, with a few notable exceptions, becomes scientifically valueless or less valuable, because the info it comes with is automatically deemed unreliable. If you are selling from a "secret" site, you should be very sure that you know exacly what the material is and how the site is correlated to other sites in the area/Formation.

And don't assume that your secret site is such a secret. There are a lot of us busting out there, and often any trace of another visitor is short lived -- especially if they like to leave some behind for the next -buster.

My personal opinion is that a fossil's highest value is in what it can teach, and that my highest responsibity is to that end. I therefore want everything I collect to retain its full scientific value. Therefore I do not buy sell or trade. I regularly contact and donate to appropriate researchers, and I work to keep my collection properly labeled and organized. My avatar is a species of mole crab that has been named for me. I know that a lot of people have collected at the same site and found those same crabs. Where did those fossils end up? Worthless on eBay from some "secret" location? (I no longer even own an example since all five I collected are in some dark drawer in the Burke Museum. Oh well, totally worth it.)

I trolled this forum for at least a year before deciding it was worth signing up. There are a lot of very knowlegeable folks here. If I thought you all were a bunch of greedy evil dealers, I wouldn't have signed up. And like I said, some dealing is probably harmless. I just hope folks are really thinking it through before going right to eBay with every rock that is taking up too much space.

Thanks for listening.

Mike

[Mike Owens]

When I first started collecting, I thought selling fossils was a bad thing, but after years of hunting, I have learned that most of the significant finds are found by amatures like us & the majority of these finds are turned over to museums or universities (I know I did & most of my fellow collectors too). I now have no problem with someone selling fossils, as long as it is common & not part of an articulated specimen that needs to be on display. I wouldn't mind having a T-Rex scull in my collection, but having a complete skeleton in my living room would be a bit much. Also, there are collectors trying to put together a complete collection of the fossil of their interest & can't afford to travel the world to find all of them. The only way to do this is to buy or trade for them. Just my two cents worth.

Mike

[jpbowden]

Most that know soon realize that I am anything but a collector, in fact most of what I find goes right back into the ground. I have never been sure why fossils that end up in a museum go to it's basement and there they remain. I want to believe that is for research and others may use them. Let's face it, everything can't go on display. I gather fossils just to learn, books are not enough, you have to hold it in the hand, see it with the eye, smell the dust so to speak. But if a person wants to sale them on Ebay or whatever is up to their own thinking, reason, or need. Who am I to say? Case in point, look at how many on this site post good or bad about Ebay almost everyday, they are looking, and buying more than likely. Now robbing closed site or digs and putting those finds for sale is another matter. Let's face, most do it as a hobby, or what have you not everyone sales and very few give to museums.

I don't have two cents does someone have change for a dollar?

Pat

[Terry Dactyll]

Where theres a 'market'...... people will meet the needs of that market for financial gain..... In the case of fossils, its usually collectors (successful collectors) that decide to recoup some of there outlay, although to make it a full time job to make ends meet is very difficult I believe.......unfortunately we are dealing with something that there isnt a never ending supply of, and you probably have noticed yourself that pickings are getting scarce in some areas...... not everyone is equipped with the understanding or judgement to differentiate between what is scarce or what isnt scarce, even moreso this decision is clouded, once something becomes an item of value and not a fossil for the collection.....

Would you walk past a perfect example hanging out of a rock? I know I would struggle.......

I think diving for fossils has its own risks and associated expendatures and were not all going to be able to do this.....so fossils collected by this method would probably never see light of day......or when they finally do wash in, be quite damaged or riverworn.....

[megateeth]

However, the part of your story that got me was that you now go collecting several times as often BECAUSE you are able to SELL some fossils. That same scenario also applies to the folks who are selling the crab concretions. So even though they may not scour out every site, they still reduce my (or my kid's) chances of finding a nice crab because they collect more BECAUSE they SELL.

Good post and to much to respond to. Believe me if I tried hunting for fossils four days a week and could not justify it to my wife I would be divorced. I get to dive more because I can justify the time by selling fossils but I do not dive because I can sell them (if that makes sense).

I respect you for your criteria and I can understand your frustration. BUT I doubt there are many people that hunt for fossils BECAUSE they can sell them. I have met several divers that see what I do and decide to give it a try thinking they can make a buck. They usually last less than a month because they see that more can be made per hour working at BK. You have to love it to spend a day digging blindly through the mud. Your gear lasts less than half as long and you are constantly taking it in for service. I love the hunt and the fossils so the money is a bonus. I am glad you posted though because I understand other people's thinking a little better.

[trilo-biker]

I have sold some of my fossil shark teeth to some of my friends 50 cents to 1.oo depending on size and shape but just a few.i sold them because a have so many I needed to make room for some new stuff Ive found