Customs hold outcomes, where'd they go?

[caldigger]

So when customs puts holds on (or rather keeps) fossils and does not release them to the proposed recipient, what do they do with them? This is not directed just at U.S. customs, but to all countries.

I have sent some fossils to a country in southern Europe and they have been basically confiscated. Even though they are obviously very old and tagged as to location found, age and species. They have had them for many months and It is not looking like the recipient will be able to get them.

Do they go home with some lucky customs agent or are they auctioned off. And if they are auctioned off, why would it be OK for someone else in the same area to bid on and have them if the fossils were held because of restrictions for that type of product in the first place. Say if the package was confiscated because of a fossil animal tooth, why is it OK to let a winning auction bidder have it?

It just irks me that this happened. It's not like I am sending ivory or modern animal products (no chance of endangered species), so what is the problem?

Doren

[Troodon]

Have you been notified that they are in Customs. I've got to believe every countries process would be different. Theft is also an issue in some countries why sellers will not ship to some.

[sixgill pete]

Doren, I have had this happen to me two times in two different European Countries. The intended recipient was never informed of this in each case and I only found out what happened after several months. The outcome was never told to me. This is the main reason why I no longer will make any trades to Europe.

In both of my cases the customs forms were filled out exactly to describe the contents. In one package was Lee Creek matrix, it was clearly labelled on the inside also with a note on the top of the box. The other was fossil echinoids and such. Each one was also clearly ID'd.

[sdsnl]

Doren, I have had this happen to me two times in two different European Countries. The intended recipient was never informed of this in each case and I only found out what happened after several months. The outcome was never told to me. This is the main reason why I no longer will make any trades to Europe.

In both of my cases the customs forms were filled out exactly to describe the contents. In one package was Lee Creek matrix, it was clearly labelled on the inside also with a note on the top of the box. The other was fossil echinoids and such. Each one was also clearly ID'd.

How did you find out in the end? Was there anything you could do about it?

[Ridgehiker]

Customs in most countries donate fossils to institutions. The Geological Survey was offered specimens a few times. We said thanks but no thanks and suggested they be offered to the geology department of the local university.

Seized endangered species items are donated to our city zoo if they have some type of education value...rhino horn, etc.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Ridgehiker

[sixgill pete]

How did you find out in the end? Was there anything you could do about it?

In one case, the matrix I was informed by mail that it had been opened for inspection due to its contents. Never heard anything else. The other I was informed by mail that it was being seized as possible contraband. I ahve tried to contact both of them back about possible solutions but never heard anything else.

[sixgill pete]

Customs in most countries donate fossils to institutions. The Geological Survey was offered specimens a few times. We said thanks but no thanks and suggested they be offered to the geology department of the local university.

Seized endangered species items are donated to our city zoo if they have some type of education value...rhino horn, etc.

Why could they not go on to the intended recipients if there was nothing illegal about them?

[caldigger]

The recipient informed me the box was being held, he has to post a bond and file way too much paperwork because it is deemed as animal products. If they just looked at what was sent, there shouldn't be any problem. However, such is not the case. The items are still being held for further inspection. I have a feeling the customs inspector hasn't a clue and is dragging his/her heels.

[jpc]

Not sure what happens, but this sort of behavior can be attributed to just plain ignorance. I know a European collector who had his whole paleontology collection questioned by the local authorities because the fossils were confused with illegal archeological remains. Archeology...? Paleontology....? Ignorance.

[sdsnl]

In one case, the matrix I was informed by mail that it had been opened for inspection due to its contents. Never heard anything else. The other I was informed by mail that it was being seized as possible contraband. I ahve tried to contact both of them back about possible solutions but never heard anything else.

I have been stopped with some micro matrix in my hand carry luggage. They seemed to think drugs could be hidden there? But after some look they let me go.

But depending in how your matrix looks, especially in a large quantity, they might hold it to avoid the spread of pests or bacteria. They ban soil for this reason. So if your matrix looks like soil, they might not let it through.

[Ridgehiker]

Why could they not go on to the intended recipients if there was nothing illegal about them?

Its not about the particular item being illegal but the importation. A country has regulations about the importation of all goods whether it be foods, fossils, drugs, cars, etc. Opium or oranges may be legal items but it doesnt mean they they can flow into the country without proper documentation. Unfortunately when it comes to fossils, there can all types of interpretations of regulations.

[sixgill pete]

I have been stopped with some micro matrix in my hand carry luggage. They seemed to think drugs could be hidden there? But after some look they let me go.

But depending in how your matrix looks, especially in a large quantity, they might hold it to avoid the spread of pests or bacteria. They ban soil for this reason. So if your matrix looks like soil, they might not let it through.

When I send matrix, it is always thoroughly cleaned. No dirt left in it whatsoever. The funny thing about the box of matrix is that I sent 2 boxes the same day to the same country, same amount of matrix just different city's. One made it to the recipient in about 8 days.

[Troodon]

Shipping internationally no matter where it originates from always bears a higher risk when it enters customs. No situation is the same and every country handles it a different way. Cost of doing business across borders.

[JohnBrewer]

I guess the was in a blind trade Doren? There is one country I deal with in Southern Europe with a product I sell and it takes ages for it to get there but the country it's joined onto no problem. I wonder if it's the same country... All other European countries I have no problem. When I've shipped in the trades I've been involved in I label the box geological samples and the one box I sent there arrived pretty quickly. I wonder if that country has specific laws regarding fossils?

[sdsnl]

Its not about the particular item being illegal but the importation. A country has regulations about the importation of all goods whether it be foods, fossils, drugs, cars, etc. Opium or oranges may be legal items but it doesnt mean they they can flow into the country without proper documentation. Unfortunately when it comes to fossils, there can all types of interpretations of regulations.

Hmm, but if something is lacking proper documentation, then per the regulations it shouldn't enter the country, right? So shouldn't it be sent back or destroyed? What makes it OK for the item to enter the country and become the property of the destination country? What right does the destination country have in deciding which museum/institute should have it? Especially if the item is not illegal to own, just illegal to import, shouldn't the ownership still lie in the shipper or recipient?

For example, suppose I walk to a customs checkpoint at an airport with a drink in my hand. I am allowed to own a drink outside the checkpoint and on the plane, I just can't take one from outside, through the checkpoint, onto the plane. When I am stopped by the officer, he will say, you are not allowed to carry that drink through. I can then decide whether I would finish the drink before entering the checkpoint, or throw it away, or to cancel my trip and go home with the drink. The officer would not forcefully take my drink and give it to a pilot on the plane, right?

Edited July 15, 2016 by sdsnl

[Ridgehiker]

Hmm, but if something is lacking proper documentation, then per the regulations it shouldn't enter the country, right? So shouldn't it be sent back or destroyed? What makes it OK for the item to enter the country and become the property of the destination country? What right does the destination country have in deciding which museum/institute should have it? Especially if the item is not illegal to own, just illegal to import, shouldn't the ownership still lie in the shipper or recipient?

For example, suppose I walk to a customs checkpoint at an airport with a drink in my hand. I am allowed to own a drink outside the checkpoint and on the plane, I just can't take one from outside, through the checkpoint, onto the plane. When I am stopped by the officer, he will say, you are not allowed to carry that drink through. I can then decide whether I would finish the drink before entering the checkpoint, or throw it away, or to cancel my trip and go home with the drink. The officer would not forcefully take my drink and give it to a pilot on the plane, right?

What makes it OK? The laws of that country. Countries confiscate all types of goods. A country is under no obligation to let any item or any person ( except on of its own nationals ) into its country. Customs iis not in the business of sending things back...its up to the sender 'to prove' that it can enter. Who decides this?...Customs. Most countries have a mechanism to question a decision but that decision is still up to the incoming country. There may be a request for further information, there may be a hearing, etc.

Anyways, all countries seize goods. Hundreds, if not thousands of items a day. This is within their laws and ownership is then considered that of the state and they can do whatever they want with what is now their property.

[sixgill pete]

What makes it OK? The laws of that country. Countries confiscate all types of goods. A country is under no obligation to let any item or any person ( except on of its own nationals ) into its country. Customs iis not in the business of sending things back...its up to the sender 'to prove' that it can enter. Who decides this?...Customs. Most countries have a mechanism to question a decision but that decision is still up to the incoming country. There may be a request for further information, there may be a hearing, etc.

Anyways, all countries seize goods. Hundreds, if not thousands of items a day. This is within their laws and ownership is then considered that of the state and they can do whatever they want with what is now their property.

You are absolutely correct. I am sure it happens all the time to incoming packages to the U.S. also.

[-Andy-]

I had my meg tooth seized once because the customs identified it as a shark product.

When I pointed out this was a megalodon tooth, an extinct species; the security officer had the cheek to ask me, "How can you prove that megalodons are in fact extinct and not endangered?"

I thought he was joking. He wasn't. I had to bring up 3 reputable websites stating how megs were extinct. In the end, it wasted 1/2 my day and gave me quite a bit of frustration, but at least I got my tooth back.

[caldigger]

He was getting paid by the hour, what does he care how long it takes?

[Wrangellian]

I was thinking about documentation on packages, and I have had no trouble with anything I have sent to other countries when I state "geological samples" or "common fossils for study / not for sale" or any variation on that, but I wonder about sending things to non-English-speaking countries - might there be a language barrier that might cause some confusion/suspicion about the package's contents?

I have only had one item go missing that was coming to me (from the US), so no language barrier but I never did find out what happened to it. Of course it was about the most money I've ever spent on a fossil, too.

[Uncle Siphuncle]

I paid $340 w shipping a couple years ago for 4 unprepped Zanthopsis dufouri crabs from Spain. They were tracked until they got to NY, where US customs lost them. I filed a claim and USPS sent me a letter telling me to pound sand. The experience has strained an overseas friendship, unfortunately. Now I'm reluctant to deal overseas. Good thing the US has lots to find, buy and trade.

[Coco]

the last time I sent a parcel to the USA (Virginia), apparently it wasn't opened, but I had put a letter Inside at the top of the package in french and in English to explain that the species which I sent were not on the list of protected animals. In this way the customs officers have had verifiable information because all the latin names had been put on pièces. It is better to be careful and to inform Inside the parcel if there are doubts as for the destinations or for the laws of the country (even if you think that the customs officers aren't enough informed ).

Coco