Northern Sharks Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 These 6 pieces are from Arkona, Ontario mid-Devonian (Arkona Shale formation) deposits and I'm stumped as to their ids. I seem to have problems with pics loading in wierd orders, so I've numbered these. If you can help me out, please refer to the number in the pic. Thanks in advance 1) I found a larger, similar brach that I identified as Nucleospira concinna and 3 or 4 of these small ones, all of similar size, I assume these are a different species, but not sure. 2) This was identified as a complete pelecypod by a local digger at the site, but I can't find anything similar. It is pyritized. 3) Tiny gastropod. Ths one has coils that stay parallel with the shell, unlike my Naticonema lineata where the coils spiral outward. 4) I picked up several of these, all are inarticulate. 5) Brachiopod. Other than that ???? 6) No idea. I found 3, all seem to be in varying states of pyritization There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Sorry I can't be more helpful, but the third one is some kind of tergomyid. Five is a productid. Why do you think that four is inarticulate? It appears to be a pedicle valve of strophomenid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 My bad. Too many things happening. I meant incomplete. All I found were 1 valve only There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 #6 is a pelecypod. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 #1 can you post a side shot and the opposite side too, please? Could be a Rhipidomella, #2 is a bonified whatzit.... Whatzit whattheheckisthis I believe. #3 looks like a Platyceras snail #4 is a Strophomenid, might be a Devonochonetes? I was going to say #5 was a Lingulida... Oh wait... Productids look like old fashioned oil lamps so Solius is correct. Both of those terms are the orders, not the genus or species. Never seen one like that from the Devonian tho. #6 is most assuredly a Pelecypod... Possibly Nuculites Your Arkona shale is similar in age and species to the Silica shale in Ohio and Alpena Limestone in Michigan. You might want to look for literature detailing the fauna of those sites as a guide to what your finding in your neck of the woods. -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 http://strata.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/mibasin/index.php This is a great site with pictures of the Devonian fossils found in the Michigan Basin (incl. southern Ontario). I couldn't match my finds with anything I saw on here though. I have a faunal list of the site, but it does not have pictures and finding them for some species is not easy. I'll continue trying to find one for Nuculites. I don't think #1 is Rhipidomella as it does not have ridges (I have several R.penelope) and I don't think #3 is Platyceras as the coil is visible from either side and doesn't coil outwards to one side. Solius' guess of a tergomyid seems reasonable, but I can't find any info about them at Arkona There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hybodus Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 http://strata.ummp.lsa.umich.edu/mibasin/index.phpThis is a great site with pictures of the Devonian fossils found in the Michigan Basin (incl. southern Ontario). I couldn't match my finds with anything I saw on here though. I have a faunal list of the site, but it does not have pictures and finding them for some species is not easy. I'll continue trying to find one for Nuculites. I don't think #1 is Rhipidomella as it does not have ridges (I have several R.penelope) and I don't think #3 is Platyceras as the coil is visible from either side and doesn't coil outwards to one side. Solius' guess of a tergomyid seems reasonable, but I can't find any info about them at Arkona Hi Northern: #2 is Phestia brevirostra #3 is Platystoma sp., maybe lineata #4 looks like Devonochonetes coronatus #5 looks like an Athyridida, so maybe Charionoides sp. #6 is Nuculites triquiter The best resource I have is the PRI Special Publication #21, Devonian Paleontology of New York, published in 1994. It is considered the "Bible" for identification of Devonian fossils in our region. It is a pretty tough publication to find, and I bought mine many years ago as a PRI member (Paleontological Research Institution) http://www.museumoftheearth.org/ On another note, now that I have relocated to back to Buffalo, NY - drop me a PM and lets hook up! I will take you to all of the hot spots in Western NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hi Northern:#2 is Phestia brevirostra #3 is Platystoma sp., maybe lineata #4 looks like Devonochonetes coronatus #5 looks like an Athyridida, so maybe Charionoides sp. #6 is Nuculites triquiter The best resource I have is the PRI Special Publication #21, Devonian Paleontology of New York, published in 1994. It is considered the "Bible" for identification of Devonian fossils in our region. It is a pretty tough publication to find, and I bought mine many years ago as a PRI member (Paleontological Research Institution) http://www.museumoftheearth.org/ On another note, now that I have relocated to back to Buffalo, NY - drop me a PM and lets hook up! I will take you to all of the hot spots in Western NY. Good Job Hybodus! hmm... looks like I'm 2 for 6 which means I fail. I'm adding PRI SP#21 to my list of books to find! -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 #3 is Platystoma sp., maybe lineata It can't be. He wrote in regards to #3: "Ths one has coils that stay parallel with the shell, unlike my Naticonema lineata where the coils spiral outward." He is describing a tergomyid, not a gastropod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 I'll post a comparison shot tonight There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Here's the comparison. These little buggers are tiny, so this is the best I can get. Hope it helps There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 #3 is what I call Genus Platyostoma and is fairly common in the Silurian and Devonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Platyostoma is a gastropod. That is not a gastropod; it is a tergomyid. From Old As The Hills: Tergomyid: Long known as monoplacophorans, this is a group of not-quite-extinct molluscs that look superficially like snails. They differ in that the shell is spiral, rather than helical, and in fundamental soft tissue structures, such as muscle arrangement. They were thought to have died out in the Devonian, nearly 400 million years ago, until one was dredged from the deep sea in the 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Here's the comparison. These little buggers are tiny, so this is the best I can get. Hope it helps Certainly looks like it fits the Tergomyid description. can you post an oblique shot so we can see the coils and the way they are spiral and not helical? Solius, how do Tergomyids differ from a Bellerophontid snails? -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 can you post an oblique shot Tell me what you mean by an oblique shot, and I'll be happy to after work There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Solius, how do Tergomyids differ from a Bellerophontid snails? Termogyids aren't torted, but there is evidence, both for and against, that bellerophonitids aren't either. Thier phylogeny is one of those subtleties of paleontology that is open for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 can you post an oblique shotTell me what you mean by an oblique shot, and I'll be happy to after work Hmm... how about a shot where you can see the coils as well as the bottom of the fossil. Kind of an in between of your third shot (a profile view) and your comparison shot (a plan view). Sorry if the terms are confusing, I'm used to using them at my job when creating drawings for construction. Take the fossil as you have it shown in your third pic... rotate it towards the top so the bottom starts to show but only go half way. Does any of that make sense? -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Termogyids aren't torted, but there is evidence, both for and against, that bellerophonitids aren't either. Thier phylogeny is one of those subtleties of paleontology that is open for debate. Okay, torted means twisted... thus you are referring to the habit of the shell (in Gastropods) to be more helical or coil like? If that is the case, how does this apply to snails like Amphiscapha and the Superfamily Euomphalacea? they have one side that is flat and thus the coils wind up like a ribbon. -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solius symbiosus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Okay, torted means twisted... thus you are referring to the habit of the shell (in Gastropods) to be more helical or coil like? If that is the case, how does this apply to snails like Amphiscapha and the Superfamily Euomphalacea? they have one side that is flat and thus the coils wind up like a ribbon. I am by no means an expert on the gastropods, but no, in gastropods, tortion refers to body morphology; the test is a manifestation of that morphology, not the other way around. There have been bellerophonitids(and others) that appear to show tortion when examining muscle scars in tests, but whose tests are not "twisted", i.e., a sagittal line along the whorl. Hence, the uncertainty of their phylogeny. I guess this could be a planispiral gastropod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 These 6 pieces are from Arkona, Ontario mid-Devonian (Arkona Shale formation) deposits and I'm stumped as to their ids. I seem to have problems with pics loading in wierd orders, so I've numbered these. If you can help me out, please refer to the number in the pic. Thanks in advance1) I found a larger, similar brach that I identified as Nucleospira concinna and 3 or 4 of these small ones, all of similar size, I assume these are a different species, but not sure. 2) This was identified as a complete pelecypod by a local digger at the site, but I can't find anything similar. It is pyritized. 3) Tiny gastropod. Ths one has coils that stay parallel with the shell, unlike my Naticonema lineata where the coils spiral outward. 4) I picked up several of these, all are inarticulate. 5) Brachiopod. Other than that ???? 6) No idea. I found 3, all seem to be in varying states of pyritization 1. Brachiopod - definitely not a Rhipidomella 2. Pelecypod - Nuculana rostellata 3. Gastropod - Platyceras arkonensis 4. Brachiopod - productid 5. brachiopod - Devonochonetes sp. Too many species to choose from. You would have to be an expert. 6. Pelecypod - No idea I will try and get you the answers for the stuff I do not know. I have a friend that knows a LOT about Arkona and he may know the brach and pelecypods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hmm... how about a shot where you can see the coils as well as the bottom of the fossil. Kind of an in between of your third shot (a profile view) and your comparison shot (a plan view). Sorry if the terms are confusing, I'm used to using them at my job when creating drawings for construction. Take the fossil as you have it shown in your third pic... rotate it towards the top so the bottom starts to show but only go half way. Does any of that make sense? Hopefully this is what you want -my camera batteries just died. If you'd said isometric, I'd be fine, I deal with blueprints and cad software daily. Shark tooth identification is easy compared to this. Also, here is a general shot of the area we were digging. That is Fossil Raccoon in the background talking to a friend of mine who lives near the site. There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron E. Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Okay, torted means twisted... Tracer, you might be just a tad torted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Yes, perfect.... definitely not a Platyceras and a great example of whatever it turns out to be. -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinus Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hopefully this is what you want -my camera batteries just died. If you'd said isometric, I'd be fine, I deal with blueprints and cad software daily. Shark tooth identification is easy compared to this. Also, here is a general shot of the area we were digging. That is Fossil Raccoon in the background talking to a friend of mine who lives near the site. Some corrections. If this is the platyceras you originally pictured, then it is not an arkonensis. I will see what I can find out for you. Also, I took a better look at #1 and it is a pelecypod not a brachiopod. From the photo, it looks like you have been there recently. How about an email the next time. Do you know any of the people in the photo. The guy digging into the shale in particular crinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archimedes Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Yes I can see from the new pics it is not a Platyostoma, but Platyostoma has great variety, from a depressed coil, almost a plano spiral, to a raised coil, to a well raised sprial coil Below is what I call a Termogyid, specimen about 1.1 centimeters long, mabe right or wrong any help is great, they are tightly coiled then extend outward, I find them in the Middle Silurian and Lower Devonian. This is not a perfect specimen but is one I found a few months ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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