Cetacean tooth?

[JohnBrewer]

Hi folks

 

Any idea on this tooth? Loos cetacean to me but wasn't aware cetaceans were found in Kem Kem.

 

[Miocene_Mason]

Yeah it looks cetacean, kem kem wont have any (way before they evolved) so I would guess it came from a slightly later site in morroco, I’ve seen archeocete teeth from the country so I don’t see why other cetecians would not be present. I don’t think Egypt allows fossil collecting, but I do remember a large valley filled with whale skeletons. 

[Troodon]

Most of the north african archeocete teeth you see sold come from Western Sahara which Morocco claims.  Are you sure it's Kem Kem?   Anyway the root looks all wrong for archeocete they are wider and flatish not round. With that curvature in the root  any chance it's Croc?  Not much to go on without a full crown.

 

@LordTrilobite

[LordTrilobite]

If it's Kem Kem, it's not cetacean. If it's cetacean, it's not Kem Kem.

 

But as Troodon also pointed out. Croc might be a possibility. But I don't recognise the shape regardless.

[JohnBrewer]

Thanks gentlemen. Hmmm maybe not Kem Kem then, I must admit I wasn’t 100% sure. Came with a stack of other teeth which definitely came from Morocco. I guess it will remain a mystery unless I can get a location.  

[Boesse]

Provenance, provenance, provenance!

[RJB]

Good luck John.  it came in a flat of spino teeth so im no help either. 

 

RB

[JohnBrewer]

No provenance @Boesse, bought from a dodgy dealer @RJB  however the rest of the box was Kem Kem so made a stupid assumption. To be honest I wasn’t expecting it to be id’ed. @Jesuslover340 What are your opinion re croc?

 

It will be given to my daughter’s school. 

 

Thanks guys. 

 

[Miocene_Mason]

Just want to add I now remember whale material from a location called Dhakla, Morocco.

[JohnBrewer]

1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

Just want to add I now remember whale material from a location called Dhakla, Morocco.

Yeah, seems like the matrix colour fits. Maybe Basilosaurus sp?

[Miocene_Mason]

Just now, JohnBrewer said:

Yeah, seems like the matrix colour fits. Maybe Basilosaurus sp?

Maybe, that's most of what the cetacean material that come out of there is (at least that I've seen). I'm not sure if there is enough to tell for sure though.

[Shellseeker]

Almost ALL of my whale teeth are easily identifiable by circular bands... here are just some of them... I do not see such bands on this fossil. If I found it in the Peace River,  I would not think whale... Maybe there are tooth whale species that do not have such bands.

[Jesuslover340]

See Boesse's post below

[Miocene_Mason]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Almost ALL of my whale teeth are easily identifiable by circular bands... here are just some of them... I do not see such bands on this fossil. If I found it in the Peace River,  I would not think whale... Maybe there are tooth whale species that do not have such bands.

 

Basilosaurus (and other archeocetes I believe) lack these and, irritatingly enough, have vertical lines similar to the Carinae of crocodilians. I’m staying in the cetacean camp but I’m not expert enough to be confident

[ynot]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

whale teeth are easily identifiable by circular bands..

I think that only applies to sperm whales and their ancestors. None of My whale teeth exhibit that trait.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

Basilosaurus (and other archeocetes I believe) lack these and, irritatingly enough, have vertical lines similar to the Carinae of crocodilians. I’m staying in the cetacean camp but I’m not expert enough to be confident

 

1 hour ago, ynot said:

I think that only applies to sperm whales and their ancestors. None of My whale teeth exhibit that trait.

 

Yes, it is my narrow view based on what I can find....sperm whales and their ancestors... I need to broaden my horizons. I pick up one of Bobby's photos of Balisosaurus teeth.. clearly no bands..

[Boesse]

OK, responses to a couple of comments here:

 

1) The tooth in question isn't a croc tooth, and is a mammal tooth, because the root is pointed at the basal end and thus the pulp cavity is closed.

 

2) This would have to be the world's tiniest basilosaurid if it were one. I'm very skeptical - also, the crown should be somewhat more laterally compressed so that the crown has a lenticular cross-section; the round cross-section is much more like a Miocene dolphin.

 

3) Circumferential growth bands DO occur in basilosaurids - they are growth bands in the dentine, and the cementum has to spall off in order to see them.

 

Here's an example in some Cynthiacetus maxwelli teeth from South Carolina in our museum:

 

[Shellseeker]

14 hours ago, Boesse said:

OK, responses to a couple of comments here:

 

1) The tooth in question isn't a croc tooth, and is a mammal tooth, because the root is pointed at the basal end and thus the pulp cavity is closed.

 

2) This would have to be the world's tiniest basilosaurid if it were one. I'm very skeptical - also, the crown should be somewhat more laterally compressed so that the crown has a lenticular cross-section; the round cross-section is much more like a Miocene dolphin.

 

3) Circumferential growth bands DO occur in basilosaurids - they are growth bands in the dentine, and the cementum has to spall off in order to see them.

 

Here's an example in some Cynthiacetus maxwelli teeth from South Carolina in our museum:

Thanks, Bobby,

1) The 1st thing I did was drool  looking at the photo,

2) Next I copied the photo to my whale related local storage,

3) then marked your post informative and if possible I would have marked each of the 3 bullets informative because each told me something either I did not know or was unsure about...I am also now clear on the definition of "spall"...

If you read this, approximately how large is that largest tooth in the center of the photo? I may have to visit Charleston, if only to check out the museum.   Jack

[Boesse]

That large tooth is about 12-15 cm long. You should visit!