Ammonite with water under the shell?

[Tidgy's Dad]

Looks Madagascan to me 

Really nice acquisition, very beautiful and interesting. 

[The Amateur Paleontologist]

I'm interested in seeing how this 'fluid inclusion-or-not" turns out 

Nice specimen BTW

-Christian

[minnbuckeye]

Is that water we are seeing move or an air bubble within a liquid? Looks to me that "it" is confined in one chamber and as he moves it, the bubble slips though a defect into the next chamber. Very  interesting to say the least! To rule out @ynot's theory, how about backlighting the ammonite providing a different light angle. If the movement is the same, likely liquid. If it's pattern is different, ynot is correct.

 

 Mike

[Conrad]

 This piece is pretty large and I can’t put a light behind it since the other side is fully fossilized. I tried taking a new video so you can see how it moves better. I appreciate all the ideas & feed back! 

[FranzBernhard]

First: Very nice ammo, congrats!

Second: I don´t see anything bubble-like, moving water etc.

I see only a light brown batch moving across a dark brown area. This ligth brown batch moves with the reflection of the light source. So I think this is an optical effect, somewhat like asterism etc. in gemstones. Maybe the dark brown material (calcite?) is composed of elongated, linearly alligned grains, maybe fibres.

But maybe I am seeing only the obvious, not the subtile things in question .

Ah, and this ammo does not have a shell, otherwise you could not see the suture lines (maybe there is some shell in the center, though).

Franz Bernhard

[Conrad]

I really see a bubble moving in it but who knows.. 

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[FranzBernhard]

Thanks for the additional video. I have made a screenshot and put a polygon around the optical effect I had described. Is this the bubble that you are seeing? This is an optical effect of the material. If its not, can you please mark the bubble for me? Thanks a lot!
Franz Bernhard

 

[Conrad]

What do you mean by optical illusion? If this is not an optical illusion what else could it be? I am also thinking maybe when they were cleaning the ammonite that some water seeped in. If that’s the case I might be able to see it dry out over sometime.

 

If this was an optical illusion it wouldn’t change with such little movement of the object. It breaks up into different bubbles. The video isn’t doing it justice. 

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[Conrad]

I’m sorry the video isn’t that good. I might try and upload somewhere else to get a longer video for everyone to see... It looks as if it has some particles moving around in the liquid. 

[FranzBernhard]

12 minutes ago, Conrad said:

What do you mean by optical illusion?

Not illusion, an effect. Its real optics, not a trick with the human eye. Light is reflected in strange ways from fibrous object, strongly depending on the direction of the light. Try googling images of asterism gemology.

14 minutes ago, Conrad said:

It looks as if it has some particles moving around in the liquid. 

Would you be able to mark them on a non-moving pic? Thanks!
Franz Bernhard

[ynot]

What do You mean "the other side is fully fossilized"? Can We see a picture of the other side?

The whole piece is fossilized and it is like being pregnant, either You are or You are not, no inbetween.

 

24 minutes ago, Conrad said:

What do you mean by optical illusion?

It is like seeing "water" on the road on a hot summer day. It is not really there, but the lighting tricks Your eyes.

(Franz said it better)

 

 

I am still of the opinion that there is no water bubble in this piece.  1 The illusion does not follow the laws of gravity,  2 it crosses the septia walls and 3 it is in the reddish area which is always a solid material in these ammonites (the geodization that occurs in these ammonites is in the lighter colored agate areas).

[FranzBernhard]

9 minutes ago, ynot said:

I am still of the opinion that there is no water bubble in this piece.  1 The illusion does not follow the laws of gravity,  2 it crosses the septia walls and 3 it is in the reddish area which is always a solid material in these ammonites (the geodization that occurs in these ammonites is in the lighter colored agate areas).

Thanks for additional observations, ynot!

Interestingly, I don´t even "see" the illusion of a bubble, only a wandering brighter spot of changing outline. But I "see" the illusion of water on a road on a hot day, even here in temperate Austria .

Franz Bernhard

[Conrad]

How does it not follow the laws of gravity? If I move it up it goes to the highest point it can. If I move it to the exact opposite it moves to the other side. 

 

 

The third photo is the other side of the ammonite, I’m trying to say I couldn’t put a light behind and you see the difference because it is so thick. 

 

 

If I was to cut this ammonite in half this section would be a hollow area. 

 

Its all fossilized yes, but it has a hollow point where somethings aren’t a solid. 

 

 

[Conrad]

I understand you see a brighter spot vs a darker spot but I can move the bubble and control where it separates... all this being said is there any other option everyone can come up with besides an optical illusion.. 

 

[Conrad]

If I tilt the object up the bubble goes up... if I tilt the object down the bubble goes down...

[FranzBernhard]

@Conrad, thanks for the additional pics! Yes, we are seeing the same thing! For me, this is just an optical effect of the material, no bubble. And it would be a "gigantic" bubble.

But you are right, many ammos from Madagasy have large cavities. But I don´t know if this one has also some, ynot says its a massive material (he has experience with this stuff). And these cavities could be indeed filled with water. But not fossil water, rain water or water introduced during preparation. And it will try out, more sooner then later.

Franz Bernhard

[Conrad]

If this water was introduced during preparation/cleaning wouldn’t I be able to see it leak out? If the water doesn’t dry out within a year what’s another theory? 

Why couldn’t it be filled with fossil water

 

if you guys could see this in person I think you’d see the bubble  & see that it follows the law of gravity & it’s not a trickery of the eye... 

i appreciate everyone’s opinion! 

 

I’m just not convinced it’s an illusion... is there any tests I could do to show you that it is in fact not an illusion? 

 

[FranzBernhard]

10 minutes ago, Conrad said:

but I can move the bubble and control where it separates

Does this depend on the position of your light source?

Keep your ammo fixed and move your light source around. What happens with the bubble?

Franz Bernhard

 

[DeepTimeIsotopes]

Just now, Conrad said:

If this water was introduced during preparation/cleaning wouldn’t I be able to see it leak out? If the water doesn’t dry out within a year what’s another theory? 

Why couldn’t it be filled with fossil water

 

if you guys could see this in person I think you’d see the bubble  & see that it follows the law of gravity & it’s not a trickery of the eye... 

i appreciate everyone’s opinion! 

 

I’m just not convinced it’s an illusion... is there any tests I could do to show you that it is in fact not an illusion? 

 

If you can figure out how to shine a light through it with no light entering from this side then we should still see a liquid inside. 

[FranzBernhard]

5 minutes ago, Conrad said:

Why couldn’t it be filled with fossil water

To many cracks and to many grain boundaries!

5 minutes ago, Conrad said:

is there any tests I could do to show you that it is in fact not an illusion?

Yes, keep the ammo fixed and move your light source around! Whats happening with the bubble?
Franz Bernhard

[Conrad]

Only moved my iPhone... see how nothing changes

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[Conrad]

Pretty sure it follows the laws of gravity 

[Conrad]

The bubble only moves if I tilt the ammonite

[ynot]

21 minutes ago, Conrad said:

How does it not follow the laws of gravity? If I move it up it goes to the highest point it can. If I move it to the exact opposite it moves to the other side. 

If it were a liquid with a bubble how come it is in the red areas but not in the yellow. It does not adhere to gravity.

24 minutes ago, Conrad said:

I’m trying to say I couldn’t put a light behind and you see the difference because it is so thick. 

If there were a cavity there the light would pass through from the other side, it is a solid.

 

26 minutes ago, Conrad said:

If I was to cut this ammonite in half this section would be a hollow area. 

No it would not.

 

24 minutes ago, Conrad said:

I understand you see a brighter spot vs a darker spot but I can move the bubble and control where it separates... all this being said is there any other option everyone can come up with besides an optical illusion.. 

 

No, because there is no other explanation.

 

14 minutes ago, Conrad said:

f this water was introduced during preparation/cleaning wouldn’t I be able to see it leak out?

No water in this piece , but yes if water was introduced during polishing it would have leaked out long before You got it.

 

16 minutes ago, Conrad said:

Why couldn’t it be filled with fossil water

Water can not be a fossil. When a rock is buried water will pass through the molecular structure and can fill a void in the rock. After the rock is exposed the water will evaporate over time (how fast depends on the porosity of the rock).

[Conrad]

Well I appreciate your opinion... I’m going to take it to some fossil people at my local university. 

We will just agree to disagree but I appreciate all your insight and different view of things

 

Thanks for your help