figginsdiggins Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hello again all, we're shot outta the saddle on bone hunting for a while in my neck of the woods. I went over and picked up a piece or two from figgins museum west I been wanting to get some better pics of and more info on. I'm gonna put most of 'em over in the member collection area, but this one here I have the most unanswered questions on. I've leaned bison all the way on this one, could even be wrong there, but if not, is there anything definitive enough on what's left here to narrow it down a little more? Bison antiquus, giant bison? Found in west Tennessee if that's any help. From the tip of the horn(or what's left of it) to what I'm calling the center of the skull is 18 inches. So, with any symmetry it would have gone 36 inches tip to tip, maybe a little more counting for what's wore off. Whether we think an inch or two is now missing we could pretty easily get to 40 inches, ( a lot of speculation, I know ). Would that not be enough to put him at the upper size end of bison antiquus or the lower size end of giant bison? Is there any other charactaristic here which would sway one either way? Or would that be even harder than camel vs. llama? I also wanted to get some better pics of this piece to get the term for the layer covering parts of the horn and what once was the interior of the skull. Most of it is a kind of a purple looking substance with little rocks sprinkled in it. I been calling it concretion, but wasn't sure if that was the proper term. Was also wondering if anyone knows about how long that process takes, and if that process was long enough to push it back to giant time. I figured a bunch of folks here have seen bison skull before, and several have probably seen the inside of a bison skull. Surely there are a few others here, like me(before Jr. found this one), who have not. I was probably most fascinated by the brain cavity, if I'm even right about that, and the impressions inside it that seem to conform to the shape of this creatures brain. Looked to be about the size of a softball, maybe a little smaller. Even a nice seam down the center inside and out. Then something else I thought was just about as cool as cool can be, between the brain cavity and the exterior surface of the skull, there are all these bone braces like a web. Almost all run on 45 degree angles and X in there middles with others. Made me think there was some head-butting going on. Really got 'em braced up and ready whether there was or not. Cool stuff in my book anyway. Hope ya'll enjoy the pictures! There'll be more over in my member's collection spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 just trying to spread the pics out so I don't go over my quota. This first pic is of the bracing between brain and exterior, The second, third, and fourth are of the stuff I've been calling concretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 sandstone encrustation. the age of the fossil can be determined by spending money for radiometric dating. i'd just call it late pleistocene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 sandstone encrustation. the age of the fossil can be determined by spending money for radiometric dating. i'd just call it late pleistocene. Thank you, Tracer, I am learning much here. I hear the dating is pretty expensive. I think if I could ever afford to have even one of our pieces dated, I would have to choose the drilled antler. There doesn't seem to be any other way to determine if it is as young as Mississippian, Woodland or younger, or as old as Paleo. I found a wood, handcarved longbow in the same area. I got pretty excited until I noticed the square tacks in it. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 What a great find. I would love to see the longbow you found square tacks and all. Keep hunting and good luck in the future. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 What a great find. I would love to see the longbow you found square tacks and all. Keep hunting and good luck in the future. Thanks, yeh, I'll get some pictures of it in here in a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 What a great find. I would love to see the longbow you found square tacks and all. Keep hunting and good luck in the future. Okay, I know this is a fossil forum, but per request of barefoot girl, I'm gonna post a few pics of a "suspected" long bow I found while fossil hunting. I may have debunked my prior square nail assessment. One of them looked like it had a round head on it at one time anyway. The others, what's left of them, look squarish and even the holes where the tacks have rusted completely away look square. Hard to get photos of with my el-cheapo camera. As you all well know our operation is very low-budget, including our museum. Hope you like the pics, welcome any ideas on this one, especially age guessing, and particularly wood-type identification. My research says that osage orange was and still is a popular material in bows. I do know that osage is a very hard and durable wood. I don't know if this piece is that type wood. It looks to me like it has lasted a pretty good while in a rough environment.(in/under water) Standing, the piece is just a shade over 6 feet tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 It looks like it might be made of Bois D Arc wood. I think some people call it Osage orange as well. I think you have an awesome find there and I loooooove the points in the back. In fact Im going out tomorrow to find some of my own. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 this first picture here shows some of the handiwork on the piece. Looks like hatchet or chisel marks to me. picture 2 shows some remnants of a hard tar-lookin' resin on what I'm calling the bottom end. this end has the most wear, the other end looks practically mint. picture 3 I think is a picture of the top end and a tack and another profile picture of the bottom end, it is more flat on the front than any other part of the bow, with the biggest majority of the rest being a prominent D shape in cross section.(flat on the back, rounded in the front) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Good picture by the way, your pose really brings some character to the whole scene. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 this first picture here shows some of the handiwork on the piece. Looks like hatchet or chisel marks to me. picture 2 shows some remnants of a hard tar-lookin' resin on what I'm calling the bottom end. this end has the most wear, the other end looks practically mint. picture 3 I think is a picture of the top end and a tack and another profile picture of the bottom end, it is more flat on the front than any other part of the bow, with the biggest majority of the rest being a prominent D shape in cross section.(flat on the back, rounded in the front) How old do you think it is? That really is a nice find!! In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 top end, top end, third picture is a shallow notch midway of piece, a finger placed just under and to the left of this notch is a perfect balance. And another tack picture I think. this oughta be fun. I'm convinced its a bow and will call it such until convinced otherwise. I don't really care if it was made by some poor old boy in the 80's to shoot carp. I think it's a little older than that though. I've enjoyed it immensely. It was a very accidental find. Partner sat down to smoke, was having trouble getting lit so I went up to help. Saw it sitting right behind him and said, "hey look, a bow!" Don't remember exactly when we noticed the nails, it was pretty quick, but shortly after it was found it went to boat rib, and stayed an old boat rib until it got back here. I was lookin' her over, thinking about cleaning, noticed the notch where an arrow would rest and the balance point. Went back to bow, historical of course, did some research and I'm still at bow. Learned a lot I didn't know about longbows whether it is or it isn't. The pure speculation about what an item "could" be is the biggest part of the fun to me. That may not be very scientific of me, but so what? Put me in fact/theory/scientific process jail if you wanna. I'm not a scientist and profess expertise in no subject. I do have a little experience in a few fields. If a hobby doesn't exercise my imagination I got zero use for it. Yes, I enjoy learning the facts and terminology about a piece, but I set out on every hunt to have fun, spend time with my family and friends, and maybe accidentally learn a little something or another as an afterthought. Imagining what that next discovery will be or could be keeps us going. I don't know a whole lot about any particular thing, but I know a little about a whole lotta things. That's the way,uh huh, uh huh, I like it, Uh huh, uh huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) How old do you think it is? That really is a nice find!! My thoughts are that it's early 1900s probably, possibly late 1800s, doubtfully much older. Could be, I guess, according to nail analysis. I thought that pose was pretty good myself. thanks. Good luck on your hunt, hope you find a bunch and take lots of pictures for us. Edited October 16, 2009 by figginsdiggins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I'm not sure if that is a bow or not, but I do have a few observations, and questions. Are the tacks in the "front" of the bow or the back? The reason i ask, is all self bows I have heard of have the wood removed on the "front of the bow down to one growth ring. This is where the bow gets much of it's strenght, from this one ring. If a person was to put a tack through this growth ring, it would make the bow much weaker, and more prone to break. If the tacks are decorative, they would be on the "back" (Towards the shooter) of the bow. Here wood is removed until the correct tiller and draw weight is reached. A small tack in this part of the bow wouldn't affect it's performace much. Can you tell if the "front is one growth ring, or is it the edge grain. I can't tell from the photos. Here is a picture of the "front" an osage selfbow showing it is one growth ring. For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figginsdiggins Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 I'm not sure if that is a bow or not, but I do have a few observations, and questions. Are the tacks in the "front" of the bow or the back? The reason i ask, is all self bows I have heard of have the wood removed on the "front of the bow down to one growth ring. This is where the bow gets much of it's strenght, from this one ring. If a person was to put a tack through this growth ring, it would make the bow much weaker, and more prone to break. If the tacks are decorative, they would be on the "back" (Towards the shooter) of the bow. Here wood is removed until the correct tiller and draw weight is reached. A small tack in this part of the bow wouldn't affect it's performace much. Can you tell if the "front is one growth ring, or is it the edge grain. I can't tell from the photos. Here is a picture of the "front" an osage selfbow showing it is one growth ring. Hey Bowkill, good to hear from you. I don't think the tacks were decorative as they penetrate through, front to back, and are only near the ends. Perhaps a fashion of holding string since it is not notched as some. Maybe just a homemade thing by someone who didn't know better? It is split a little at some of the tacks. I have no idea on the growth ring question. got any other ideas as to material? According to how long it's been tumbling in the water, I also think it may have been a little thicker. Appreciate your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 um, dude. i don't think it's a bow. but you look good holding it, so if you want to string it up and twang off a few at a neighbor's capybara or something, then i guess it would then become a bow... i think it's a support rib for the bottom of a carriage that carried what's her name to the ball. and that rib fell off right before midnite when the rest of the contraption turned into a pumpkin. did you find any seeds in the area of the rib? what? ok, ok, i guess i was being silly. but here's the deal. what maroon would use big ole bolts to hold on a bowstring rather than put a simple groove around the ends? also, why would the ends be so sharply tapered and pointy? also why would the thing not be shaved smooth and rounded along it's whole length if it was meant to be a personal accountrement and not break when bent repeatedly? plus it's too skinny to have been used to shoot bison. are you seeing a pattern here? sowwy? i'll try to be good from now on. and don't be twanging capybaras. i was just kidding. <snoopy shimmying out, fingers crossed behind back> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 this first picture here shows some of the handiwork on the piece. Looks like hatchet or chisel marks to me. picture 2 shows some remnants of a hard tar-lookin' resin on what I'm calling the bottom end. this end has the most wear, the other end looks practically mint. picture 3 I think is a picture of the top end and a tack and another profile picture of the bottom end, it is more flat on the front than any other part of the bow, with the biggest majority of the rest being a prominent D shape in cross section.(flat on the back, rounded in the front) If it is a bow, and I am not convinced that it is, it is not of any style that the Native Americans used, at least that I am familiar with. If you take some pics around the brace area, if there is one, it might help. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) sure looks like a support rib from the center of an old boat. They have a boat from the 1930's on display at Univ of Kansas that was used on the shallow Kansas River. Can't find a picture of it, but here's one with similar ribs. The one used on the Kansas was wider and shallower, so would have a bend similar to your "bow". (It's a cool find, regardless.) Edited October 16, 2009 by Xiphactinus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 ...The pure speculation about what an item "could" be is the biggest part of the fun to me. That may not be very scientific of me, but so what? Put me in fact/theory/scientific process jail if you wanna. I'm not a scientist and profess expertise in no subject. I do have a little experience in a few fields. If a hobby doesn't exercise my imagination I got zero use for it... You go guy!!! For me, flailing about in an ocean of info while trying to weave a cohesive account about something I used to know little (mixed metaphor, possibly alluding to underwater basket weaving) is the best way to waste my free time! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 sure looks like a support rib from the center of an old boat. They have a boat from the 1930's on display at Univ of Kansas that was used on the shallow Kansas River. Can't find a picture of it, but here's one with similar ribs. The one used on the Kansas was wider and shallower, so would have a bend similar to your "bow". (It's a cool find, regardless.) Or, better still, it could be a rib from a canvas covered canoe....pretty interesting for sure. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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