Boesse Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 OK folks, I'm working on the umpteenth manuscript version of my senior thesis, which I will eventually submit to Journal of Paleontology sometime in December. I have some teleost odds and ends I need identified, and I'd like to solicit comments on a strange Isurus tooth I have. I've already written my description and comparisons. This assemblage is from the Purisima Formation, and is of late Pliocene age. One of the elements is a tiny ray tooth, which I've tentatively identified as dasyatis - but the pictures are horrible, so I apologize. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THobern Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Could it be an oxyrinchus upper lateral? Edited November 3, 2009 by THobern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Perhaps - it is very similar to Isurus planus, so I identify it in my text as Isurus sp., cf. I. planus. It might also be I. paucus, or potentially I. retroflexus. Any thoughts on the bony fish material guys? Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notorynchus Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 That thing on the third pic , first en second row , is a Raja clavata dermal denticle. Frederik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Frederik, I've seen these variably referred to as Raja, and Dasyatis centroura. Currently, in my manuscript they're tentatively referred to Raja cf. binoculata - do you have a reference? Have those been found in Atlantic sediments? Or anywhere else that you know of? Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 OK folks, I'm working on the umpteenth manuscript version of my senior thesis, which I will eventually submit to Journal of Paleontology sometime in December. I have some teleost odds and ends I need identified, and I'd like to solicit comments on a strange Isurus tooth I have. I've already written my description and comparisons. This assemblage is from the Purisima Formation, and is of late Pliocene age. One of the elements is a tiny ray tooth, which I've tentatively identified as dasyatis - but the pictures are horrible, so I apologize. Bobby Bobby, That mako certainly looks like a retroflexus. On the labial side of the root there should be some evidence of the root featuring an "elevated platform" (as per Kent, 1994) or an embossed zone just below the crown that slopes down to the level of the rest of the root. The crown should look quite flat labiolingually compared to oxyrinchus. Yeah, I can't really tell from the photo what to say about the ray. Raja male teeth resemble Dasyatis male teeth but it varies from species to species. Dasyatis roots tend to look like little prongs and extend at an angle. There is a publication on modern skate teeth by Herman, Hovestadt, and Hovestadt (I want to say 1994). It's in French and published by the Brussells Museum of Natural History (I believe - I'm not at home now). It has a lot of great photos of teeth. The Raja article is part of a series on shark and ray remains. There is also one on Dasyatis and related rays. I have one or both at home. If you can get a better photo or even try scanning it, someone here might be able to help more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hey Jess, Thanks for the help - I've thought for a while that the tooth may represent I.retroflexus, but the literature is very poor concerning this taxon. ######, I might just identify it as Isurus sp. I took some scans of the ray tooth last night; I'll post those later today. Bobby Any thoughts on the fish bones, folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 OK, here are some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hey Jess, Thanks for the help - I've thought for a while that the tooth may represent I.retroflexus, but the literature is very poor concerning this taxon. ######, I might just identify it as Isurus sp. I took some scans of the ray tooth last night; I'll post those later today. Bobby Any thoughts on the fish bones, folks? Bobby, You should also consult the third Lee Creek volume that covers the fishes, reptiles, and birds, although Purdy et al. venture the opinion that retroflexus is not a valid species. Too many teeth from Dutch and Belgian sites (and others from sites around the world) prove that you can build artificial tooth sets for it (a dentition similar to the modern I. paucus). I believe there is a photo of a dermal denticle like that one in it as well. I can hunt down some papers for you when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hey Jess, Trust me, I've compared each of these scraps to every photo in that publication several times over! We'll see. I'm perfectly happy being cautious and calling it Isurus sp., but discussing its similarity with I. planus. Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Hey Jess, Trust me, I've compared each of these scraps to every photo in that publication several times over! We'll see. I'm perfectly happy being cautious and calling it Isurus sp., but discussing its similarity with I. planus. Bobby Bobby, For the Isurus, you might try looking through any of Leriche's papers on Oligocene and Miocene fish remains. He figured teeth from several angles. I. retroflexus goes back to at least the Late Oligocene (I have at least one specimen from the Chandler Bridge Formation; also have at least one incomplete one from the Olcese Sand). Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Thanks, siteseer. Here are some better photos of the batoid tooth I took through a bino scope at MOR a couple years ago. Let me know what you guys think... ALSO, does anyone have any idea what that big diamond shaped dermal bone is??? That HAS to be diagnostic... Bobby By the way... scale is in millimeters. Edited November 9, 2009 by Boesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenixflood Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Hey Jess, Trust me, I've compared each of these scraps to every photo in that publication several times over! We'll see. I'm perfectly happy being cautious and calling it Isurus sp., but discussing its similarity with I. planus. Bobby I have no clue about the fish, sorry But the tooth does have some similarity to planus or it could just be a hastalis with some pathology not sure The soul of a Fossil Hunter is one that is seeking, always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 Well... its neither I. hastalis nor I. planus, because the fossil is late Pliocene, although it does resemble I. planus. Ideas on the osteoderm and ray tooth, anyone? Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaselachus13 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Sorry, I can't help with the Isurus, but I think that the ray tooth may belong to the genus Dasyatis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THobern Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 The problem with that Isurus sp. is that the labial side is much too worn to id conclusively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 I'm trending toward Dasyatis sp. for the ray tooth; Thobern - the Isurus sp. tooth isn't worn at all (aside from minor root damage). Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm trending toward Dasyatis sp. for the ray tooth; Thobern - the Isurus sp. tooth isn't worn at all (aside from minor root damage). Bobby Bobby, That fourth shot is the best. It does look like a male Dasyatis tooth at least similar to a tooth form from Sharktooth Hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 hi, I've think Dasyatis too... Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Pareidolia : here Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THobern Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm trending toward Dasyatis sp. for the ray tooth; Thobern - the Isurus sp. tooth isn't worn at all (aside from minor root damage). Bobby That's what I meant; the worn root on the labial side makes it harder to id, as that part of the tooth is often indicative of species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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